"Twisting the Scriptures to fit our own ideas can result in lasting harm."
Does that include twisting them to fit the idea that they don't contradict themselves?
As I mentioned above you can twist anything to fit a certain point of view. However, if you twist one portion then another portion will be out of whack and won't fit. True understanding of the scriptures comes when the scripture in question fits in with the rest of the Bible as a whole.
I personally have not found any scriptures to be in contradiction. I've seen scriptures that some feel to be contradictory but those contradictions have been cleared up when examined in the light of the rest of the Bible.
The point being that the Bible is harmonious within itself. Some people may disagree with the Bible's teaching and some churches may teach doctrine or tradition that are not in harmony with the Bible, but that doesn't mean the Bible's contradictory. It means that man is contradicting the Bible.
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posted
Herb, how can an incomplete book be harmonious with itself?
The Vatican choose which books to include and exclude, running on a Pope's time line for maintaining power. Such as absorbing the pagan beliefs of the time in order to increase the size of the Church.
While the original written works could well have been divinely inspired I can not give that weight to any translations or compilations of those works. Mankind has got free will, which leaves everything done by a human subject to interpretation, and, worst of all, change.
Take the Hebrew word for kill and murder for the Big 10. How can God in one section say you Shall not kill, then direct his people to do just that? Thou shall not murder, on the other hand, makes more sense by far. Yet people cling to the word kill.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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"If a single black hole can alter time, then it follows that time itself would come to a halt around the OB. When the 'Big Bang' happened all that mass was still in close proximity as it began to expand. The total mass of entire galaxies would still be in relatively small areas for light years away from the epicenter of the blast. As these galaxies began to spin out solar systems, they would still have incredible mass far beyond a black hole that would have temporal effects. 'Normal' time as we know it would not have existed until the masses of galaxies and their solar systems had sufficient separation to cross the threshold or 'event horizon' of the temporal effects caused by the local mass."
Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
Member # 1689
posted
Another addition to the Divine Mystery:
quote: JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
About the "day" thing. The Hebrew word used there has got a sense of "an undetermined amount of time." In fact, later in Genesis it says God created Day and Night - so how could he have taken some few days up to that point if he hadn't even invented days yet? This fits in with what Ritten just said - translations are very imperfect.
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The difference between the Father and the Son has been the source of controversy for a long time. The Nicene Creed from the 300's A.D. decided that they were one in the same personage.
However, to me that doesn't quite explain this: John 17: 20-21: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
Here Jesus is praying for his disciples, asking the Father that they may one as he and the Father are one. Now, unless he wanted his followers to become some sort of great amalgamated being, the scripture seems to indicate that they are indeed two separate individuals.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
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quote:Originally posted by TSN: Show your math.
I have not professed to be a mathematical wizard or astrophysicist. Nor was I claiming that this phenomena would explain "One Day".
The Photon Sphere is that point where gravitational forces bend light photons at an equal distance around the center of the star core. According to Dr. Robert Nemiroff, Professor of Astronomy and Astrophysics, University of Pennsylvania & Michigan Technical University, at the photon sphere �...you can see the back of your head.� The Photon Sphere in a non-rotational core is 3/2 times the event horizon radius. A core 10 times our sun is a 10 solar mass black hole with a Schwarzschild radius of 30 km and a Photon Sphere of 45 km.
While I have NOT tried the math myself, it would seem quite reasonable that the gravitational forces present at Creation had significant temporal effects on the universe as a whole. It is a matter of solving the equations.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
Member # 1689
posted
Time is just a dimension like space anyway. I don't think God would see a thousand years as a day. I think the question would be meaningless to him. He'd see a day more like a mile. Time wouldn't "pass" for him, he'd just go whenever and wherever he wanted to. If he was omnipresent then talking about time and space in relation to God would be as meaningless as talking about the flavor of blue.
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quote:Originally posted by Zefram: The difference between the Father and the Son has been the source of controversy for a long time. The Nicene Creed from the 300's A.D. decided that they were one in the same personage.
However, to me that doesn't quite explain this: John 17: 20-21: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
Here Jesus is praying for his disciples, asking the Father that they may one as he and the Father are one. Now, unless he wanted his followers to become some sort of great amalgamated being, the scripture seems to indicate that they are indeed two separate individuals.
One in thought. One in purpose. One in agreement. Just like the scripture you pointed out above. Not one as in the same being.
Again, Zefram, you illustrated the point well. It was the Nicene Creed and Constantine that set the Catholic Church down the path toward the Trinity. Traditions of man overruling the Bible.
quote:Ritten said Herb, how can an incomplete book be harmonious with itself?
The Vatican choose which books to include and exclude, running on a Pope's time line for maintaining power. Such as absorbing the pagan beliefs of the time in order to increase the size of the Church.
Ritten, you're also illustrating my point. Accepting the traditions of Man as doctrine. What we accept as the entire Bible was complete roughly 200 years before the Council of Nicea. Since then man has been meddling in attempt to fit the Bible into their mold.
How can an "incomplete" book be harmonious? It can be harmonious within itself.
Let's break it down. Before Jesus was born there was just the Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures. That testament was complete up to that time. It was harmonious in that nothing within those scriptures was out of harmony with anything else.
Then came the New Testament or Christian Greek Scriptures (since the majority of it was written in Greek). The question to ask if are these scriptures in harmony with what is already established (the Old Testament)?
quote:Take the Hebrew word for kill and murder for the Big 10. How can God in one section say you Shall not kill, then direct his people to do just that? Thou shall not murder, on the other hand, makes more sense by far. Yet people cling to the word kill.
Don't governments today do the same thing? Most nations have laws preventing murder, yet many countries choose to enforce the death penalty. Now, this is definitely a delicate political issue and even members on this board either agree or disagree with this. Regardless of where you or I stand on the issue of the Death Penalty, it doesn't nullify the fact that such a law exists despite the fact that individuals of the same nation are told not to kill.
quote:While the original written works could well have been divinely inspired I can not give that weight to any translations or compilations of those works.
Another good point. The Bible was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. We all can't be language scholars and be fluent in these languages so we need translations. How though do we know the translation we're reading is accurate?
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THere could have been expressions that requierd other english words in order to make sense, or even whole sentences. And it was translated into Ye Odle Tyme Eenglish, right? So there must be differences that and a modern english translation.
Speaking of bibles, I would love to see a Guttenburg(berg) Bible. It think they have part of one of the originals around here, in a church museum. I believe that was either in German or Latin.
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quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Zefram: [qb]One in thought. One in purpose. One in agreement. Just like the scripture you pointed out above. Not one as in the same being.
I think some translations even render "one" as "in unity".
Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
Member # 1689
posted
I've seen a replica of a Gutenberg Bible...damn Gothic Latin alphabet, I could hardly make out a single letter. Picket fencing.
Anyway, about Christians being the most miserable men in case they're wrong. What if you're right and the rest of us are wrong? That seemed to be the reason why many of the Christians I knew growing up stuck to what their parents taught them about religion. But then again, I have a Catholic friend in Spain who tells me he's always been taught that you don't really have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, but rather embody the virtues he espoused - forgiveness, righteousness, faith (in whatever you choose to have faith in). So it all seems to me like a big murky mud puddle, and I'm led back to my original belief that Man hasn't the first clue what God wants.
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