Although it's an unwritten tenet mostly, (although somewhat backed up by Amendments III and IV) one of our most important societal values is that a person's property is theirs to do with as they see fit.
These "property rights" extend to anything owned by an individual, which is not a public institution. They include the belief that "a man's home is his castle," among other things, and were fundamental in the creation of laws against home violation, quartering of soldiers in homes, and search and seizure. It is this tenet which allows one to set up "no trespassing" areas on one's property, as well as to do such things as ban undesirable activities and people (Those signs which say "no salesmen or solicitors," for example.
Without this fundamental right, all sorts of negative things could happen.
For instance... what if the KKK decided that your backyard was the perfect setting for a rally? If not for this basic tenet, you could do nothing to prevent their assembly and speechifying, or your likely identification with and presumed support of said group by others.
Not a pleasant thought, is it?
That's one of the reasons why this right of property is so important to folks.
Another example: Charles has the right to ban people from this site if he doesn't like what they say. He may not USE the right much, (although who here remembers the antisocial.com invasions?) but it is his, because this is HIS website. His property.
Can you think of sites where no one possesses this power? Or where everyone does? Do you think you could stay there for long?
(and if it's true that they were accosting people, then what they were wearing becomes even more moot.)
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: For instance... what if the KKK decided that your backyard was the perfect setting for a rally? If not for this basic tenet, you could do nothing to prevent their assembly and speechifying, or your likely identification with and presumed support of said group by others.
I'm probably missing some subtle point here, but surely there's an ever-so-slight difference between My House (where I live my own private life) and A Shopping Mall (designed to allow large groups of strangers to wander around looking at items to purchase in a nice environment with coffee shops and stuff).
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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People can run businesses out of their homes. At times, these businesses can have many customers. From a legal and ethical standpoint, the owned home, the owned building/business, are inseparable.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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posted
You don't what rights are yours as an American citizen?
I wanted your opinion, Jeff. I do that.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
I have to agree. The mall consents people to shop within their confines, the same way a man invites guests in to their homes. And that same man can kick out unruly guests, no?
But yes, the reason itself was stupid. I'm trying to determine if Stephen Downs has grounds for a lawsuit. Ideas?
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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You wanted my opinions as to what rights I have? The rights that I have, the rights that you have, and the rights of all American citizens are not a matter of opinion, they are a matter of Constitutional law.
Again, shouldn't you fucking know this to be in college?
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
quote:I wanted your opinion, Jeff.
You wanted my opinions as to what rights I have? The rights that I have, the rights that you have, and the rights of all American citizens are not a matter of opinion, they are a matter of Constitutional law.
Again, shouldn't you fucking know this to be in college?
I think I know what Omega is saying. Suppose you are a person who promotes say, death against Chinese people. And you go into a mall wearing a shirt that says as such. And mall security kicks you out. Sure, you have the right of free speech, but then, in a private setting, you're basically at the mercy of their rules.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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posted
Bingo, Eric-san. You don't have a right to say whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. That can't be found anywhere in the Constitution.
(Where "you" is defined as one under the protection of the Constitution of the United States. Obviously, this would not include our resident anagram.)
And whether it's a public place is irrelevant. It's still private property.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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posted
Well woohoo to facist security guards who can now abuse their authority to promote their political agenda! Surely, that's not what the Constitution is to guard against.
And of course, with our current Big-Corporation loving President in office, it's only a matter of time before everything is privately owned. Then his facist administration doesn't have to worry about protests at all. Yay.
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
Well woohoo to facist security guards who can now abuse their authority to promote their political agenda! Surely, that's not what the Constitution is to guard against.
Now that I think about it, it may not necessarily a constitutional issue. Technically, the guards may "constitutionally" be correct, but morally, they were way off the mark. Especially when they were abusing their authority to promote their own political agenda. They can hide behind "property rights" all they want, but it does not hide the fact that what they did was just plain wrong.
There is something called discrimination, which is basically defamation of the rights conferred as a citizen, such as freedom of speech, and what to wear. The determination of discrimination in Ontario is made by the Human Rights Commission. Of course, you cannot allege discrimination in a private home, but it is possible in a setting such like a restaurant, or a mall.
A woman alleges discrimination in a restaurant because she breastfeeds her baby. Her allegation is upheld.
A Neo-Nazi group allege discrimination in a mall or community center because of their dissemination of hate literature. Their allegation is dismissed.
If anything, Mr. Downs has the right to sue the mall on the basis of discrimination of political views. That's what it should be, unless, as First points out, they were being a nuisance. But then, they should have simply kicked them out, and not merely ask them to remove their shirts.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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posted
Well, certainly, what they did was wrong. But just as certainly, no legal rights were violated. And I had something really good to post here before my browser crashed.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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"For instance... what if the KKK decided that your backyard was the perfect setting for a rally?"
If I were in the habit of regularly offering my back yard as a freely open public gathering place in the spirit of, say, a shopping mall, then I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
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posted
And you'd still have the right to chase them off, either way.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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