"Actually I think the hindus see the universe as more of a whole, with the various dieties being facets of the supreme...so you could in that way interprit it as monotheisitc."
Well, it all comes down to definitions. How far do you want to extend the "mono-" and "poly-" aspects? Strictly speaking, Christianity could be called polytheistic, since they have Yahweh, Jesus, and Satan, who are all pretty much on par w/ one another.
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Um... Satan is not on par with ANY aspect of God. There you get into your definition of what qualifies as a deity, I suppose, but if you include Satan you also have to include all the angels, of whom there are... quite a few.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Angels, hmm, angels. Agents? Agent Smith is my ally! His gun and his fist they comfort me. He will keep me warm and jacked-up and I shall have red meat for supper.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
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quote:Um... Satan is not on par with ANY aspect of God.
In theory, perhaps. In practice, Christians talk about Satan nearly as much as they talk about God. Satan may not have as much power as God, but the way he's talked about, he seems to have as much effect on human beings as God does, sometimes even more.
Though even without Satan, one could argue for Christianity as polytheism simply based on the beliefs around God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. For all intents and purposes they're treated as separate entities. Though I have to say this is more the case in Protestant rhetoric than in Catholic ones.
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Well, three more-or-less interchangeable entities that form one holy trinity do not constitute true polytheism, IMO.
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Belief in "A" Supreme Being = required for Masonic membership... although I'm about as far as you can get without being ineligible, as a weak Deist. I put up with the prayer trappings because they're not harmful.
If Thomas Jefferson can do it, I can.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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quote: Well, three more-or-less interchangeable entities that form one holy trinity do not constitute true polytheism, IMO.
The thing is, if you actually talk to a Christian at length, they're not really interchangeable at all. God the father basically represents the Old Testament God, and is sort of a far-removed overseer, has good intentions but doesn't want to ruin his manly image with compassion. Jesus has the compassion that God pretends he doesn't, and he's the person Christians have a 'relationship' with, not God. He'd be a gentle caretaker. The Holy Spirit is an amorphous entity that basically does everything God pretends not to do. I had a conversation with a Christian flatmate where I was informed something like 'God is within you through the Holy Spirit.' The HS also provides intuition and guidance and such things.
Basically, this is not that unlike how gods are treated in 'polythestic' religions in which all gods are eventually manifestations of one god.
Something else I've gathered is that Catholic rhetoric tends to refer to all three as 'God', whereas Protestant rhetoric makes distinct separations.
quote:The dogma of the Holy Trinity (taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church)
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." The divine Unity is Triune.
The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."
St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:
quote:Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me.
Apparently, that explains it.
If you work out what it means, please tell me.
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In practice, Christians talk about Satan nearly as much as they talk about God.
The thing is, if you actually talk to a Christian at length, they're not really interchangeable at all.
Both of these depend on the Christian. I certainly don't talk about Satan all that much, nor do any of my friends. And I do, to a great degree, consider the trinity interchangable.
Though even without Satan, one could argue for Christianity as polytheism simply based on the beliefs around God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. For all intents and purposes they're treated as separate entities.
Again with the definition of seperate dieties. If you have three entities that have similar natures and the exact same motivations and intentions, where does one stop and the next begin?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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You've got to be careful though Ommey. If God is ever present, omnipotent etc then in theory you could say that EVERYTHING is a part of him. Some demarkation is required.
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"The thing is, if you actually talk to a Christian at length, they're not really interchangeable at all. God the father basically represents the Old Testament God, and is sort of a far-removed overseer, has good intentions but doesn't want to ruin his manly image with compassion. Jesus has the compassion that God pretends he doesn't, and he's the person Christians have a 'relationship' with, not God. He'd be a gentle caretaker. The Holy Spirit is an amorphous entity that basically does everything God pretends not to do. I had a conversation with a Christian flatmate where I was informed something like 'God is within you through the Holy Spirit.' The HS also provides intuition and guidance and such things."
God is the burly ex-marine, Jesus is his long-haired hippy son, and the Holy Spirit is their talking, philosophical pet bird.
And Satan is the wacky next-door neighbor!
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"Course he was. He had long hair and didn't have a job. What else do you call that?"
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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I am boycotting the religious debate, which makes almost as much sense to have as the 'gun' banning debates.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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