quote:Originally posted by The359: I think this would be playing a bit of devil's advocate, but...
Are all Israeli fighter pilots trained to identify every single type of naval ship in the world? Their superiors may be at home, but I don't think you could take a random Israeli pilot, show him a picture of a ship, and have him identify its type and what country it is from.
Israeli pilots are some of the best trained in the world, at present. No clue what they were like back then, but their contemporaries likely have an extensive background in silhouette recognition. U.S. pilots are trained this way and we set the standard for what the Israeli AF uses for the training of their aircrews. They've just done the typical Israeli thing and improved upon it. Liberty didn't have a silhouette that could be mistaken for very many other types of ships, so I think the odds of it being an "honest mistake" are fairly small.
quote:Second, how is the communications officer able to be sure that the Israeli pilots confirmed they were firing on a American ship? Wouldn't they be speaking Hebrew? Would he be able to translate Hebrew?
U.S. "Spy Planes" are generally manned by linguists, who are trained in both understanding the language and analyzing the information it represents. This has been the case since the U.S. first started putting these linguists on-board reconn birds like this might have been. Of course, I'm also somewhat armchair quarterbacking what the "sply plane" contained, but I'm willing to lay good money down that there were Hebrew linquists on-board. The ship was an Intell Ship, so it very likely had linguists on board, as well. That was it's job, after all: monitor communications and report back all intelligence it gathered while on-station.
quote:Third, and this one is just an idea in my head, but couldn't the Israeli pilots have interpreted the raising of the American flag as an attempted deception by the "Egyptians" to trick the Israeli's into believing that they were attacking an ally? I don't know about you, but it'd be a trick I'd use to try to sneak past someone who is attacking me...
quote:Originally posted by Griffworks: The ship was an Intell Ship, so it very likely had linguists on board, as well. That was it's job, after all: monitor communications and report back all intelligence it gathered while on-station.
I had forgotten the Liberty was an intel ship, I was thinking of the Liberty ships from WWII.
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
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"Third, and this one is just an idea in my head, but couldn't the Israeli pilots have interpreted the raising of the American flag as an attempted deception by the 'Egyptians' to trick the Israeli's into believing that they were attacking an ally? I don't know about you, but it'd be a trick I'd use to try to sneak past someone who is attacking me..."
Sure, it could happen. But one should assume it has happened w/o a lot of other evidence.
"Crap! We're surrounded by ships flying our allies' colors! It must be an enemy trick! Destroy them all!"
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quote:Israeli pilots are some of the best trained in the world, at present. No clue what they were like back then, but their contemporaries likely have an extensive background in silhouette recognition. U.S. pilots are trained this way and we set the standard for what the Israeli AF uses for the training of their aircrews.
You ARE aware of the US military's track-record when it comes to "friendly fire" incidents? 8)
quote:Second, how is the communications officer able to be sure that the Israeli pilots confirmed they were firing on a American ship? Wouldn't they be speaking Hebrew? Would he be able to translate Hebrew?
Quoting from www.ussliberty.com, "Ennes acknowledges that no "official" Hebrew linguists were on board, but he points out that at least one of the doomed NSA men, Russian/Arabic linguist Allen Blue, understood Hebrew. As for the jamming, Ennes, quoting Chief Radioman Wayne Smith and an article in Proceedings, also notes that the ship could not have been misidentified, because the frequencies jammed were peculiar to the U.S. Navy. Liberty Radioman Richard "Rocky" Sturman also recalls that he and other technicians heard the radio jamming. Judge Cristol rejects such accounts as "myth."
quote:Third, and this one is just an idea in my head, but couldn't the Israeli pilots have interpreted the raising of the American flag as an attempted deception by the "Egyptians" to trick the Israeli's into believing that they were attacking an ally? I don't know about you, but it'd be a trick I'd use to try to sneak past someone who is attacking me...
The flag was already raised. The ship was displaying all her colors so that no one could misidentify her. After the attack began, a LARGER flag was raised in case the Israeli pilots were blind as well as stupid (as it turned out, they were just stabbing their ally in the back).
quote:Originally posted by Lee: You ARE aware of the US military's track-record when it comes to "friendly fire" incidents? 8)
Yes, just as I'm aware of the Brit Military's track-record on the same.
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Quoting from www.ussliberty.com, "Ennes acknowledges that no "official" Hebrew linguists were on board, but he points out that at least one of the doomed NSA men, Russian/Arabic linguist Allen Blue, understood Hebrew. As for the jamming, Ennes, quoting Chief Radioman Wayne Smith and an article in Proceedings, also notes that the ship could not have been misidentified, because the frequencies jammed were peculiar to the U.S. Navy. Liberty Radioman Richard "Rocky" Sturman also recalls that he and other technicians heard the radio jamming. Judge Cristol rejects such accounts as "myth."
That's interesting that they weren't on-station with an "official" linguist. Interesting that the judge rejects the accounts. I wonder if something isn't being spelled out in the website and stories that are publicized.
quote:The flag was already raised. The ship was displaying all her colors so that no one could misidentify her. After the attack began, a LARGER flag was raised in case the Israeli pilots were blind as well as stupid (as it turned out, they were just stabbing their ally in the back).
Good point about the flag already being up. I had forgotten about that. I've seen the Liberty website before and read thru the account, but it's been a while. I had forgotten that Liberty wasn't a "spy ship" in the strictist sense of the word. She was a intell gathering ship that sat in international waters and flying the U.S. flag.
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posted
I would wager that the Lib found somthing of intrest about Israel that they didn't want to be passed on to America... so they attacked the ship.
This is a good example of why we should have never supported those nuts in the first place. Don't get me started...
grumble grumble nuke them all let God figure out the rest mutter snort.
-------------------- Like A Bat Out Of Hell...
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quote:I would wager that the Lib found somthing of intrest about Israel that they didn't want to be passed on to America... so they attacked the ship.
Something which noone has leaked since? Really?
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
At least I have some solace that Americans are also not immune to friendly fire. And where the families of its victims are given the same treatment as the Canadians.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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posted
I don't know. Did the US pay off the Canadian's families? Because the official records say that Israel made restitution of $13,000,000 which was divided up among the families of the victims.
in 1967, 13 million was still a lot of money.
Maybe the survivors didn't get any?
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
I heard that the U.S. does not plan to. I also hear is that part of the reason is due to current Canada-U.S. relations, and compensation would only be considered once Canada "toes the line".
What I don't understand is why they knocked Schmidt's counts to just one, indictable for only 6 months jail time. Many people around who have tuned in to this trial have wondered why didn't Schmidt simply lift his plane to a safe height instead of engaging.
In the article regarding the Liberty, I am under the impression that justice for the victims was not truly achieved. Sure, there is a payout, but there has got to be answers for the many questions, which they feel have not been addressed.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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quote:in 1967, 13 million was still a lot of money.
Maybe the survivors didn't get any?
Oh, of course, THAT'S it. The only reason the survirors are mad at Israel is that they didn't get any green. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that Israel, an ally of the USA, tried to MURDER them, a treachery worse than the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor before declaring war!
It all boils down to money, eh? Well, Rob, sorry. Israel committed an act or war, and they can't buy their way out of that. Israel needs to fess up, and admit their crimes, including whatever it was they were doing (plans for pre-emptive assaults, murders of POWs, whatever) that they felt warranted such secrecy as to risk war with the United States.
quote:It has NOTHING to do with the fact that Israel, an ally of the USA, tried to MURDER them, a treachery worse than the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor before declaring war!
Whoa, calm down there, skippy. Once I punched my friend in the face. Charles Manson surely has nothing on me.
Also, once, there was this one time when I fell of my bike, skinning my knee. A very cute girl asked me what happened, and I certainly did not say I merely fell off my bike. I was scaling the mountainside and tumbled down the sheer cliff face, narrowly avoiding disaster. A site run by objective victims is surely as divested.
Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
And of course, EVERYONE on the Liberty is now a person involved in that site. Or even, a lot of them. SOME of them?
Which is why Ennes keeps managing to forget how many people were interviewed by the Court of Inquiry.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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