quote:One really must look carefully when such leading lights as Dean Rusk, Marshall Carter, Richard Helms, Lou Tordella, Tom Moorer, Rufus Taylor, William Odom, Bobby Ray Inman, John Morrison, George Ball, Clark Clifford, Lucius Battle, William Odom, Merlin Staring and others including even LBJs own press secretary George Christian all say almost with one voice that it was deliberate and that the evidence says so. Four former NSA directors agree that deliberateness of the attack was not a debatable issue; it was agreed fact. None of these men are the sort to adopt wild or irresponsible positions.
Most damming:
quote:People are just learning that the Court of Inquiry was falsified. The Court's own legal counsel, Captain Ward Boston, now says publicly in Navy Times and elsewhere that the court actually believed that the attack was deliberate but reported otherwise falsely because it was so ordered by Washington.
Gosh, guess it doesn't matter HOW many people Cristol claimed to interview ...
posted
Thank you First of Two for the original posting. I was previously unaware of this incident. I don't know which side I fall on with this controversy, but it is very interesting reading both positions.
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
It must be fake: Nothing ever happened before I was born.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: It is your right to be an idiot.
quote:One really must look carefully when such leading lights as Dean Rusk, Marshall Carter, Richard Helms, Lou Tordella, Tom Moorer, Rufus Taylor, William Odom, Bobby Ray Inman, John Morrison, George Ball, Clark Clifford, Lucius Battle, William Odom, Merlin Staring and others including even LBJs own press secretary George Christian all say almost with one voice that it was deliberate and that the evidence says so. Four former NSA directors agree that deliberateness of the attack was not a debatable issue; it was agreed fact. None of these men are the sort to adopt wild or irresponsible positions.
Most damming:
quote:People are just learning that the Court of Inquiry was falsified. The Court's own legal counsel, Captain Ward Boston, now says publicly in Navy Times and elsewhere that the court actually believed that the attack was deliberate but reported otherwise falsely because it was so ordered by Washington.
Gosh, guess it doesn't matter HOW many people Cristol claimed to interview ...
Not Cristol, you dolt. The Court of Inquiry.
Ennes says they never interviewed any of the survivors. The records say otherwise.
In fact, most every claim Ennes makes, the records say otherwise.
Now, I haven't read through all of Ennes's website, but in relation to the list of names he makes above, does he offer any documentary evidence that said individuals actually made such expressions of belief?
Ennes credibility would jump in my eyes if you could show me that a large number of Liberty survivors agree with his claims. This means more than his partner in the website, and more than the fact that he was president of the survivors' association for a time.
Given that Ennes's statements seem to contradict those of not only his CO, but many of his crewmates (to the extent that he goes as far as to claim they were never interviewed by the Court of Inquiry), this would be an interesting challenge.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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Rob. You are an idiot. It is the only way to explain why you are ignoring Captain Ward Boston. It is the only way to explain why you bash Ennes and ignore those with more experience in this matter than either you or I have, people who happen to agree with Ennes, that the attack on the Liberty was DELIBERATE, people like Dean Rusk, Marshall Carter, Richard Helms, Lou Tordella, Tom Moorer, Rufus Taylor, William Odom, Bobby Ray Inman, John Morrison, George Ball, Clark Clifford, Lucius Battle, William Odom, Merlin Staring and George Christian.
In fact, since you keep saying that Ennes seems to be the only Liberty survivor claiming that the attack was deliberate, I would VERY MUCH enjoy seeing you attempting to back up your assertion by posting first hand accounts from Liberty survivors who believe it WAS an accident.
In the end, you can't, because your blind need to defend Israel means that you must overlook what can only be interpreted as an DELIBERATE assault on a ship of the United States Navy - an act of war.
posted
I was going to post something as virulent and nasty as your post, Snay, but then I read a few things which changed my mind about doing so.
You know, you would have made both our lives easier if you'd just linked to the few survivors' statemets that were on the Liberty page, rather than vent your spleen.
I'm going to concede that Ennes MIGHT have a case. It would help if he didn't make claims that are clearly not borne out by the facts, like the Court of Inquiry bit, but still he and his supporters make a compelling argument.
And he's right that the US's need to support Israel at the time (and ever since) makes it extraordinarily difficult to reach a satisfying conclusion, free of suspicion. As long as Israel is our ally, someone will be able to say "Oh, they're just covering it up to protect their ally."
Unfortunately, the alternative is, in fact, worse.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Rob. You are an idiot.
Am I the only one who thinks you're really overkilling on the insults here?
quote:It is the only way to explain why you are ignoring Captain Ward Boston. It is the only way to explain why you bash Ennes and ignore those with more experience in this matter than either you or I have
A Court of Inquiry wouldn't have more experience and knowledge?
quote:people who happen to agree with Ennes, that the attack on the Liberty was DELIBERATE, people like Dean Rusk, Marshall Carter, Richard Helms, Lou Tordella, Tom Moorer, Rufus Taylor, William Odom, Bobby Ray Inman, John Morrison, George Ball, Clark Clifford, Lucius Battle, William Odom, Merlin Staring and George Christian.
I'd like to see their statements that say they believe that, since quite frankly, listing names doesn't do shit for me. I have no clue what they said or why they are listed there.
quote:In fact, since you keep saying that Ennes seems to be the only Liberty survivor claiming that the attack was deliberate, I would VERY MUCH enjoy seeing you attempting to back up your assertion by posting first hand accounts from Liberty survivors who believe it WAS an accident.
Well if we could get the opinions of those people listed above, it'd help...
quote:In the end, you can't, because your blind need to defend Israel means that you must overlook what can only be interpreted as an DELIBERATE assault on a ship of the United States Navy - an act of war.
And are you at all in the slightest open to the possibility that you are wrong?
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
Registered: Mar 1999
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I have no need to defend Israel. The outcome of the several arab attacks on them has convinced me of that.
I was only interested in the OP because I vaguely recalled the topic from the mists of history. I didn't even remember who'd posted on the subject, nor did I care. I was reporting news.
Your subsequent unprovoked attack on a non-hostile intelligence gathering vessel (sounds familiar) prompted a retaliatory strike.
I think it's very clear who has the blind need to attack whom.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:A Court of Inquiry wouldn't have more experience and knowledge?
The359,
Key members of the inquiry - including the afore-mentioned Captain Ward Boston - are coming forward and saying that the inquiry's findings were ORDERED by Washington. In other words, there was no inquiry which actually did what it was supposed to.
quote:Am I the only one who thinks you're really overkilling on the insults here?
I don't think calling Rob an idiot is overkill. Rather, it is accurate based on all available information.
quote:And are you at all in the slightest open to the possibility that you are wrong?
If there was a possibility that I was wrong, I would be open to it. Since all available evidence indicates that the attack was deliberate, and since no-one can offer any counter-evidence beyond "waaaah they're all dirty liars", I see no reason to change my stance.
Israel knew damn well the ship was the USS Liberty.
posted
Of course to Snay "All available information" consists solely of "everything I can cut-and-paste off of Ennes's website." Don't even begin to suggest he look elsewhere, he'll cling to that site like Omega to the Bible.
But besides that, and his juvenile way of saying it, it's an accurate statement.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:I have no need to defend Israel. The outcome of the several arab attacks on them has convinced me of that.
The outcome of THAT which left a U.S. Navy ship smoking in the water. I wonder how long Israel would've survived if LBJ had taken them up on their invitation.
quote:Your subsequent unprovoked attack on a non-hostile intelligence gathering vessel (sounds familiar) prompted a retaliatory strike.
Oh, you made a typo: it's supposed to be, 'on a non-intelligent vessel'. Remember for next time.
quote:I think it's very clear who has the blind need to attack whom.
Oh, wah, pity-party for Rob. Oh well, this is always the result when he gets so badly beaten.
quote:Of course to Snay "All available information" consists solely of "everything I can cut-and-paste off of Ennes's website." Don't even begin to suggest he look elsewhere, he'll cling to that site like Omega to the Bible.
Okay, Rob, why don't you start pointing to information that the attack was an accident? You CAN'T. You can't point to the board of inquiry because members of it are saying "Hey, it was rigged." You can point to Israel, but, hey, "can you say motivated self-interest?"
You have NOTHING to point to! All you can do is moan and bitch and whine about how mean I am, and about Omega's love for the Bible. Get a fucking grip, boy.
quote:But besides that, and his juvenile way of saying it, it's an accurate statement.
posted
Enough of you. Cry into the darkness, I nevermore shall hear your prattling tongue.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
So, since you have nothing further to contribute, I'll take it you've tucked tail between your legs and retreated under the "I made a big fuss, love me" door?
posted
Lord God. Go sleep with a woman. Or try to. Buy one, if needed. If you can't afford a real one, dress up a really drunk man in a wig. But, touch someone, somewhere naughtily.
Registered: Oct 1999
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