quote:Granted, these were from "military sources," but what is there to contradict this report?
A complete lack of evidence showing they raped anyone. (at least nothing so far: hopefully that's at least just a rumor)
Want truly disgusting? Rumsfeld is already talking abot monetary compensation for these poor "victims". Many of wich are in prison for killing or attempting to kill american servicemen.
Lets make them rich!
In no way is torture ever justified, but these guys arent altar boys or "innocent" car thieves (as a rule)....they're combatants and the same thugs that Saddam would send out to make people vanish.
The woman in charge of the prison needs to be courtmartialled for certain: it's her command, after all.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Epoch: Let's have someone pour phosphorus over your body and shove a broom handle up your ass, and let's see how "oh, boo-hoo" you feel about it.
"In no way is torture ever justified, but these guys arent altar boys or "innocent" car thieves (as a rule)....they're combatants and the same thugs that Saddam would send out to make people vanish."
Oh, yeah, I'll bet that seventy-some-year-old woman that they put a leash on and rode around on her back like a donkey was a real bad-ass thug.
This is all the same sick, degraded excuse the administration is trying to pass off on us. "Well, other people have carried out worse torture in the world, so what our people did wasn't as bad, by comparison. So, it's really not a problem." Do we have to surpass Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot combined before it actually an issue?
We claim we invaded Iraq to save the people there from Saddam's abuse. And then we start doing the exact same things he did in the exact same places he did it, and some people are actually depraved enough to just blow it off. I can't even imagine what sort of extreme psychological maladjustment is required to be capable of that.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I had'nt seen anything about an old woman being ridden around: that's just sick.
My friends in the military can hardly believe this sort of shit really happened: it's a nightmare that makes the 99.99% of people serving look like monsters. Everyone I know that has, or is, serving in the military would love to pummell these idiots: all the US deaths in Iraq so far are being made to look justified to the arab world because of this.
I cant believe that BUsh learned about this via news-sources. Either he's so far out of the loop that he has no clue what his commanders in Iraq are up to or he's an accomplice.
What I really cant believe is that these idiots are so dumb as to pose for photos with the victims! They need mandatory jailtime for that alone!
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
First I have yet to hear of anybody getting phosphorus poured onto them then getting a broom shoved up them. And second I've not heard of any old women being ridden.
Now you are comparing us to the ranks of Hitler and Stalin. Man that is a huge leap of imagination. So far we have a bunch of guys being photographed nude, 2 suspicious deaths, and a hand full of others getting beat on. Hmmm oh my god we are worse then Hitler and Stalin combined. Get real. To even consider comparing any of this so far to those butchers is beyond rational thought.
Do I think what happend should have happend? Of course not, I'm not inhuman. Do I think it should just be forgotten? Again or course not, they should be punished. Do I think people are blowing this so far out of proportion that the general public can't tell fact from fiction? Hell yeah. Once again emotion blinds logic. At this point I wouldn't be suprised to hear that our soldiers were cooking children and eating them.
-------------------- The Poster formally known as Tec.
Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: My friends in the military can hardly believe this sort of shit really happened: it's a nightmare that makes the 99.99% of people serving look like monsters. Everyone I know that has, or is, serving in the military would love to pummell these idiots: all the US deaths in Iraq so far are being made to look justified to the arab world because of this.
No kidding....this puts an unwarrented taint on every good US soldier fighting in Iraq and other areas...from what the report indicated the MP units involved were troubled units anyway with poor leadership,training and discipline; I'd like to know why in hell why the brass did not take steps to rectify these problems.
However there are others who need to be held responsible for this too; as a couple of articles I printed in "The Coporate Military Monster" thread noted, civilian contracters were in part responsible not only for running these prisons but conducting the interrogations as well. One report noted that these companies were cutting corners by using untrained drivers and cooks to conduct interrogations!
To make things worse, there were cases where these contracters were giving orders to soldiers! Now that IMHO is a clear breakdown of the chain of command. Why in hell were civilain contracters giving orders to soldiers in the first place? Soldiers are only to take orders from legal authoity...namely superior officers and civilians designated in the chain of command.
The worst part is, as was noted earlier, that the law is fairly nebulous on these contracters. Who should hold them responsible for their actions? This is something that seriously needs to be addressed.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I cant believe that BUsh learned about this via news-sources. Either he's so far out of the loop that he has no clue what his commanders in Iraq are up to or he's an accomplice.
Reports I saw indicated that Rumsfeld was made aware of problems at that prison as early as January, then informed Bush shortly thereafter (which contradicts their assertion that they found out only after the "60 Minutes 2" broadcast). In fact, "60 Minutes 2" was persuaded by an Air Force General to suppress those photos for two weeks before they learned that the New Yorker was going to publish them. Incredibly, neither Bush nor most of his advisers ever read the report I cited.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: What I really cant believe is that these idiots are so dumb as to pose for photos with the victims! They need mandatory jailtime for that alone!
Thing was, they didn't feel they were doing anything wrong; when they asked for guidance on how they were to deal with these prisoners, they were brushed off by their copmmanders and told to follow the orders of the intel people in the prison. The soldiers involved noted they were not even told about the Geneva Convention accords! Certainly the soldiers should be dealt with, but the officers of the units involved should be called on the carpet also; in addition, action should be taken in regards to the contracters involved also.
-------------------- The best way to predict the future is to create it.
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Let me start by saying, you might want to do some reading before posting.
quote:Originally posted by Epoch: Veers I found no comments anywhere it that link that says that women and young boys were raped. Nor have I heard any such comments on any of the news programs that I watch.
Read this....
quote:Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and "acting inappropriately with a dead body." The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
quote:6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:
a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women�s underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
quote:Originally posted by Epoch: First I have yet to hear of anybody getting phosphorus poured onto them then getting a broom shoved up them.
Read this....
quote:8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):
a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
9. (U) I have carefully considered the statements provided by the following detainees, which under the circumstances I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses:
quote:Originally posted by Epoch: And second I've not heard of any old women being ridden.
Read this....
quote:Guards treated woman like donkey: Bush scolds Rumsfeld over abuse controversy
The latest allegation involved an elderly Iraqi woman said to have been abused by U.S. military guards.
The woman, arrested last July, was reportedly put into a harness and forced to crawl on her hands and knees while a guard rode her donkey-style.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair's human rights envoy to Iraq, Ann Clwyd, told the BBC she had investigated the allegation and believed it to be true. The woman was held six weeks and never charged.
"She was insulted and told she was a donkey," Clwyd said, noting the woman was forced to wear a harness. "An American rode on her back."
[ May 08, 2004, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Epoch: Some of them got the crap kicked out of them and some of the were humiliated by having pictures of them taken while they were naked. Boo Hoo. If I got caught by the Iraqis and that is all they did to me I'd feel damn lucky. It seems to be perfectly acceptable for the Iraqis to kill our troops and civilians then mutilate their corpses as they drag them around the town. But by god we humiliate some of them by stripping them naked and suddenly we are the devils right hand.
I can�t believe I even have to write this.
We are supposed to be BETTER than that.
The United States, is supposed to be that shining beacon on the hill.
We are supposed to be the ones the world looks to as an example of human and civil rights. True, we dont always live up to this standard, but to throw our hands up in the air and let our values slip away and give into the sort of 'oh well, they're only Iraqis who did something bad' or 'well, we�re at war' excuses is wrong.
We DO NOT BEAT, ABUSE AND HUMILIATE UNARMED prisoners.
Others might, but we do not.
That is our spirit, our ethos, our fundamental values.
I don't paint the entire military with the brush stained by these MP's, but we should have been above reproach after invading their country to find WMD�s bring them democracy.
[ May 08, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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"Now you are comparing us to the ranks of Hitler and Stalin. Man that is a huge leap of imagination. So far we have a bunch of guys being photographed nude, 2 suspicious deaths, and a hand full of others getting beat on. Hmmm oh my god we are worse then Hitler and Stalin combined. Get real. To even consider comparing any of this so far to those butchers is beyond rational thought."
Okay. Well, when you're ready to address what I actually said, let me know.
No wonder you didn't know about all the other things mentioned (and which Jay beat me to posting the references for). Obviously you can't read.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Highway Hoss: Thing was, they didn't feel they were doing anything wrong; when they asked for guidance on how they were to deal with these prisoners, they were brushed off by their copmmanders and told to follow the orders of the intel people in the prison. The soldiers involved noted they were not even told about the Geneva Convention accords! Certainly the soldiers should be dealt with, but the officers of the units involved should be called on the carpet also; in addition, action should be taken in regards to the contracters involved also.
It's not as if soldiers have no clue how to behave: there is the military code of conduct (at least officers know that one backward and forward) and even if the soldiers were'nt advised on the particulars of the Geneva Convention, common fucking sense says that what they were doing is illeagal in the extreme.
What a cluster-fuck this is.
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I can understand why it's hard to educate soldiers in humane treatment and respect. The officers don't want to sound "wimpy" or "feminine", it goes against the general mindset.
They are trained in a fashion that promotes harsh behavior, unceasing reprimands until you "fit the mold" and a system of blame that (often) without problem can "run downwards"; that is, if an officer has a bad day and takes it out on his low-ranking assistant, the low-ranking assistant can take it out on his squad or something. It isn't by the book, and sometimes there are genuinly "good" officers who, when seeing this procedure, manages to talk to the people involved and make them act maturely and more self-consciously.
However, I believe that the general "mindset" in the armed forces across the whole world is that when you're in a battle situation and the opportunity to handle enemy soldiers is given, I suspect a lot of gratuitous "looking the other way" to let the troops have their fun, for morale's sake, is commonplace.
Like Aubrey said in "Master and Commander" about rum; "I won't interfere with a time-honored tradition."
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Phht. Just because soldiers take shit from the occasional power-happy higher-up, does not mean that they somehow lack the ability to make a simple moral judgment call or that these soldiers thought they'd somehow be reprimanded for NOT torturing the prisoners.
Society and immeadeate social environment dont excuse illegal and morally reprehensible behavior.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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posted
"I can't even imagine what sort of extreme psychological maladjustment is required to be capable of that."
I honestly don't know what's more sickening, the things that were done to those prisoners or that there actually are people bending over backwards to defend the soldiers responsible for them.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
Registered: Nov 1999
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Jason: "Society and immeadeate social environment dont excuse illegal and morally reprehensible behavior."
I'm sorry to say it does, in too many people's minds, though they don't think of it as illegal or reprehensible, of course. I've seen too many examples of abuse at the hands of "enlightened" people in everyday society, who thought they were "within their rights", to be surprised that the Iraq prison scandal happened.
It doesn't take "extreme psychological maladjustment" or some fancy psychological illness to make a tormentor or executioner out of your average joe, as long as he's worked-up enough and gets the ok from the brass or his/her colleagues. I wasn't saying that the blame-system in the military always creates monsters, but when you have a chain of command within which bad grudges travel downwards, you create a platform for future lashouts at the base level, with prison keepers and "grunts" who lose their temper with civilians and prisoners.
Since most of the abusers at the pictures were smiling, it wasn't a question of random lashouts but systematic and calculating abuse, with pictures taken as mementos.
I guess these people had simply seen a lot of bad things in the war, created by their enemy, and had no problem exacting justice on them, like poor 'Fuck Hitler' in "Saving Private Ryan" (though that one turned out badly).
Registered: Aug 1999
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I guess I should just back out of this discussion since I'm incapable of reading as stated by TSN.
TSN you might want to also check your reading skills. The info that Jay posted did not come from the original link left by Veers. So unless I'm a psychic I had no way of reading that info. Now as for not addressing what your really said you should take your own advice. You have taken what I've said and pulled it out of context using exaggeration just like I did with your comments. But I guess I should just leave this discussion to you guys who are of obviously higher moral standards and larger intellect then I.
-------------------- The Poster formally known as Tec.
Registered: May 1999
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