Epoch: "TSN it is obvious that you are not familiar with my forms of sarcasm."
Sarcasm taking the guise of "rolling over on back and exposing jugular" is not a hard-hitting form of sarcasm. Pretending to run away with tail between legs actually decreases what amount of respect you have. Best for you to not use sarcasm at all, gives us peace of mind and avoids misunderstanding.
If I were God, sarcasm would be outlawed and I could eat hamburgers and pizza every day and still have mouth abs like Brian Thompson, Fantasy Movie Star.
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
As regards the Hitler and Stalin thing...I'm unsure if it was purposeful, but what Epoch wrote...
quote:Now you are comparing us to the ranks of Hitler and Stalin.
which is a complete misrepresentation of what TSN wrote.
Which was...
quote:Do we have to surpass Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot combined before it [is] actually an issue?
There is no comparison of the United states armed forces to Hitler et al in TSN�s argument. Rather he asks whether or not that is level the abuse has to get to before some right-wingers concede that this is an actual problem.
If you wanted to put his comment in another context or make a different point about it by using sarcasm or exaggeration, well that�s one thing.
But what you wrote seemed pretty straightforward and I do not read any sarcasm or exaggeration into it.
He may have been a bit snarky about it, but I think TSN called you on a legitimate misrepresentation.
[ May 09, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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For the record, because these Assbastards would do the same to USA prisoners, I think that it's within the purview of the United States Military, as the solitary bastion of the Defenders of the Free and Morally Right to do whatever's in their power to stop the Iraqi prisoners and have a little deviant sexual fun while at it.
Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Do I think what happend should have happend? Of course not, I'm not inhuman. Do I think it should just be forgotten? Again or course not, they should be punished. Do I think people are blowing this so far out of proportion that the general public can't tell fact from fiction? Hell yeah. Once again emotion blinds logic.
The problem here is the US is now in an emotional war, not a logical one. Their task is now to win the hearts, so to speak, of the Iraqi people. Episodes like these will fan the flames of resistance in Iraq, stories will circulate about all kinds of American attrocities now, and all the resistance needed was an episode of this type to give any story "it's grain of credibility." This could be a defining moment in the Iraq war which could defeat any plans that the US has had for democracy in Iraq and other places in the Middle East.
-------------------- "and none of your usual boobery." M. Burns
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
We'll never "win their hearts". Forget about that one.
What we need to "win" is their respect and that wont happen if we're using Saddam's methods on prisoners.
Liam, thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding: I though someone was accusing US/UK troops of being specially trained in these prisoner abuses (although many Arabs are saying that anyway).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
In a post titled "Wouldn't want them to get too far ahead of the SecDef," Mark A. R. Kleiman links to a story about a Pentagon memo.
I really liked the last part of the following about not complicating the investigative processes by seeking information.
Ironies are so cute sometimes.
quote:This leakage will be investigated for criminal prosecution. If you don't have the document and have never had legitimate access, please do not complicate the investigative processes by seeking information.
So reads an memo from the Pentagon to personnel ordering them not to try to obtain and read the Taguba report from the Fox News website.
quote:ALL ISD CUSTOMERS SHOULD:
1) NOT GO TO FOX NEWS TO READ OR OBTAIN A COPY 2) NOT comment on this to anyone, friends, family etc. 3) NOT delete the file if you receive it via e-mail, but 4) CALL THE ISD HELPDESK AT 602-2627 IMMEDIATELY
....
Again, THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS REPORT IS CLASSIFIED; DO NOT GO TO FOX NEWS TO READ OR OBTAIN A COPY.
In a funny, in that the-person-who-wrote-the-memo-just-doesn�t-get-it sort of way, the memo reads like directions about where to obtain and read the Taguba report.
But in that all too serious sort of way, it�s the Pentagon culture at to it�s most opaque as it attempts to stifle information and prevent people from knowing what�s going on.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jay the Obscure: But in that all too serious sort of way, it�s the Pentagon culture at to it�s most opaque as it attempts to stifle information and prevent people from knowing what�s going on.
No suprise there, Jay; the Pentagon had been sitting on this report for two months before the photos release forced them to declassify it.
As Sydney Blumenthal notes in this article Bush and his aides were positively inept about handling the situation; most of them never read the report (!)....and when it did became public they floundered about trying to put a positive spin on it. The ineptness and cluelessness of this administration beggars belief sometimes.
As the article noted, what we are seeing in Abu Ghazi is just one part of an entire network of an extra-legal Gulag network that the administration has set up in several areas (including Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay) where suspects are held for long periods of times without being charged and their rights are systematically violated. There have also been cases where prisoners were shipped to other countires that then tortured them.
Thing is both the President and Republican leaders in Congress are doing their damndest to suppress investigations into this matter; but as far as I'm concerned its too late.The genie is already out of the bottle and the battle for hearts and minds is effectively over.
BTW one thing the article notes is the involvement of "independent contracters" in the deaths of a number of prisoners where these detainees are being held. I think there should come a serious reckioning on the involvement of these contracters not only in Abu Ghazi but in other "detention facilities" as well.
-------------------- The best way to predict the future is to create it.
Registered: Apr 2004
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The basic attitude taken by Rumsfeld, Cheney and their top aides has been "We're at war; all these niceties will have to wait." As a result, we have waged pre-emptive war unilaterally, spurned international cooperation, rejected United Nations participation, humiliated allies, discounted the need for local support in Iraq and incurred massive costs in blood and treasure. If the world is not to be trusted in these dangerous times, key agencies of the American government, like the State Department, are to be trusted even less. Congress is barely informed, even on issues on which its "advise and consent" are constitutionally mandated.
Leave process aside: the results are plain. On almost every issue involving postwar Iraq�troop strength, international support, the credibility of exiles, de-Baathification, handling Ayatollah Ali Sistani�Washington's assumptions and policies have been wrong. By now most have been reversed, often too late to have much effect. This strange combination of arrogance and incompetence has not only destroyed the hopes for a new Iraq. It has had the much broader effect of turning the United States into an international outlaw in the eyes of much of the world.
Whether he wins or loses in November, George W. Bush's legacy is now clear: the creation of a poisonous atmosphere of anti-Americanism around the globe. I'm sure he takes full responsibility.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
I'm sure that what the world thinks of the US doesn't cause Bush to lose much sleep at night.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
I notice a British WW1 cemetary in Iraq has been vandelised; some graves destroyed, others have had pictures from Abu Graib. Someone needs to point out that that was US troops...
Also; looks like the Mirror's photos are fakes. Not all that surprising, really; there are a huge number of apparent inconsistancies in them. On the other hand, it is Hoon saying this.
Registered: Feb 2002
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Senator Patrick Leahy recently spoke out on the floor of the Senate about the Iraqi prison disaster. I agree that Rumfeld should be held responsible for this disaster; but Bush is speaking out in support of him. Why? Simple; if Rumsfeld resigns, he could end up "spilling the beans" on some of this administration's other dark secrets..
-------------------- The best way to predict the future is to create it.
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Not that I haven't seen many examples of the real world often surpassing Tom Clancy and Frederick Forsyth, but huh?
Registered: Aug 1999
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
So, American soldiers lashed out against their prisoners because they thought the Iraqis were behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks and wanted to settle the score, and now Iraqis are lashing out against British soldiers (albeit dead ones) because they think the British are behind the AG torture scandal and want to do the same. Symmetry.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
Registered: Nov 1999
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The US troops didint lash out against any prisoners for 9/11...that's just a convient excuse from the right. (not that you're from the Right, Cartman)
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: Hack's Target Hanging Out the Troops By David H. Hackworth � As an American citizen, I'm ashamed of the atrocities committed by Americans in Iraq. As a former professional soldier, I'm appalled not only by what has happened in the prisons there, but also by our military leadership. From the very top of the Pentagon down to the 320th Military Police Battalion, the brass have spent months covering up obscene behavior while placing the sole blame on Joe and Jill Grunt. ��������� �� The damage to our country and our just war on terrorism is already devastating. And these war crimes not only diminish the sacrifices of our gallant soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, they place the troops at even greater risk. But I'm certain that these abhorrent acts wouldn't have occurred had the right kind of leadership been exercised by the chain of command. ��������� �� In 1951 in Korea, I was told by my commanding officer to kill four POWs and refused his direct order. I well remembered the Nazi generals' sorry rationale for their despicable conduct: "We were just following orders." I would get booted out of the Army before I went that route. ��������� �� In 1965 in Vietnam, I saw a very connected intelligence captain torturing a POW with a field-telephone wire attached to his testicles and decided my personal belief system outweighed his father's four stars. When I told him I'd shoot him if he didn't cease and desist, the atrocity came to a screeching halt. ��������� �� On both occasions, I knew I had the moral right. I'd been taught from the first day I put on a U.S. Army uniform that American soldiers don't follow unlawful orders and that it was my duty to stop or report an illegal act. I also believed strongly that when dealing with POWs, "There but for the grace of God go I."���������� ��������� �� The vast majority of our regular soldiers today are likewise well-trained, well-disciplined and have similar values. And they've conducted themselves during the occupation of Iraq in a manner that aptly reflects what America is all about. ��������� �� But, unfortunately, this is not always the case with many Army Reserve and National Guard units that have been deployed overseas since 9/11. In fact, I've worn out several drums beating the readiness issue during face-to-face meetings with the top brass. As far back as 1989, I warned Secretary of the Army Mike Stone about the generally sad shape of our Reserve and Guard components.� But while he listened up, little was done to correct the systemic problems. ��������� �� And now, because Mr. Rumsfeld and too many of his generals are into a fast-fix mode, the Pentagon has been dispatching Reserve and Guard units to combat zones even when they aren't good to go. For example, I know of two enhanced infantry brigades that were rated as not combat-ready by Training Center commanders but were still sent to Iraq because boots were needed on the ground. ��������� �� Retired Master Sgt. William Lawson, who brought the atrocity story to SFTT.org, says the 800th Military Police Brigade is a prime example: "My nephew Chip, who's been charged with war crimes, wasn't trained to be a prison guard. He was a part-time soldier marginally trained for even conventional military police (MP) work. But Chip was such a good soldier that he was selected to escort Gen. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Staff, when Chip was guarding the vice president right after 9/11. Myers gave him both great reviews and his personal coin."� ��������� �� "The bedrock truth about the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison is that they were so easily preventable," adds SFTT (Soldiers for the Truth) Vice President Roger Charles, who researched this story for CBS News. "But that prevention required a recognition that the top people in the 800th were ill-prepared, incompetent and uncaring. The evidence clearly shows that the Department of the Army mafia was more concerned about protecting the image of the brigade commanding general, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, than holding her and her officers accountable for the terrible situation, which they allowed to fester for months." ��������� �� Speaking of Karpinski, she's received only a mild slap on the wrist as the brass were circling the wagons.� Not a good sign that our country's commanders intend to own up to their respective roles in this catastrophic breach of human rights, which will have consequences we all will have to pay for many years to come.� ��������� Col. David H. Hackworth (USA Ret.) is SFTT.org co-founder and Senior Military Columnist for DefenseWatch magazine. For information on his many books, go to his home page at Hackworth.com, where you can sign in for his free weekly Defending America. Send mail to P.O. Box 11179, Greenwich, CT 06831. His newest book is "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts."� � 2004 David H. Hackworth. Please send Feedback responses to [email protected].
Footnotes: 1) I highly recommend reading Hackworth's book "Hazardous Duty" for his thoughts on the National GUard and Reserve. 2)The assigning of MAJ General Miller to comand Iraqi prisons after he made the recommendations that triggered these atrocites can be seen in asimilar light. 3)Rumsfeld's handling of the report on the prison atrocites certainly is not encouraging in this regard.
In many ways, the 800th Military Police is an excellent example of the military axiom "There are no bad troops, only bad officers." Certainly if someone had taken action to deal with the incompetent officers of this unit, this might have been avoided.
-------------------- The best way to predict the future is to create it.
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