quote:Originally posted by Zefram: I can only think of the days of prayer called for through the centuries by presidents and Congress during times of national emergency (such as when by Nixon called for one when the Apollo 13 crew was in danger), the saying of a prayer prior to the meeting of Congress that has been done since 1776, the essentially unquestioned addition of the phrase "under God" to the Pledge of Allegience in the '50s, the fact that Nativity scenes on public property during Christmas and crosses on public seals were never questioned until the past couple decades or so, frequent ACLU victories in courts limiting public expressions of religion, etc. I'm under the impression that it's your side that's winning.
The population used to be less diverse, like Jason said. Those things aren't so surprising when you're talking about a very dominant Christian demographic. At the time of the country's founding, and excepting for the odd Deist and atheist, all white Europeans were Christian. Since the population is more diverse now, it's no longer acceptable for everything to favor that one religion.
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quote:While it's certainly true that fifty years ago, no one would question a public nativity scene, you can bet someone would have burned down a minorah.
A few years back, the Nativity scene set up in Balboa Park in San Diego was viciously defaced. Even Christians and their religious imagery don't get a free pass.
quote:Though that did not preven religous right wingers from strongarming Target and Sears into promising to use the word "Christmas" this year instead of the more inclusive "Holiday Season".
The whole Happy Holidays thing doesn't seem inclusive to me, it seems like studious avoidance of the phrase Merry Christmas. In my own personal experience, I've seen the phrase "Happy Hanukkah" on a store or public building more frequently than the phrase "Merry Christmas", although "Happy Holidays" is certainly the most common. I take absolutely no offense to practitioners of the Jewish faith being wished a Happy Hanukkah. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a "Happy Yom Kippur" sign this coming October. However, I do take offense that the very name of the holiday celebrated by the majority of Americans has somehow become "The Holiday that Shall Not Be Named".
A good example of this occurred this past Christmas with the increasing tendency to call a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree". This is simply absurd. Neither Hanukkah nor Kwanzaa use trees, so why try to stuff a tree into their celebrations? I, and I believe many other Christians, would be infinitely happier to see a menorah and a Christams tree side-by-side rather than some watered-down, secularized "Holiday Tree".
An example of the inclusiveness I'm referring to is President Bush's approach this past December. Rather than giving some general 'Holiday Address', President Bush gave separate Hanukkah, Christmas, and Kwanzaa messages, with special references to the main points of each holiday.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Well, that's the P.C. aspect of it for ya. I was irked in that two Christian groups specifically wanted Target and Sears to eliminate "holiday season" and use Christmas instead- exclusively. No Hanukka, Kwanza or anything else. They got (according to them anyway) 70,000signatures to their petition and bent target over their proverbial Christmas tree.
I've seen many idiotic bumper stickers that read "Jesus is the reason for the season", which is laughable since Christmas was not a real holiday in december untill relativly recently and Hanukkah predates it by several hundred years.
Ignorance at work. This "religous backlash" Christian people sometimes (lately) percieve? It's a knee-jerk reaction to coordinated efforts by the Right to shove Christianity down the general populace's throat.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:I've seen many idiotic bumper stickers that read "Jesus is the reason for the season", which is laughable since Christmas was not a real holiday in december untill relativly recently and Hanukkah predates it by several hundred years.
Well, Christmas (whose name means "Christ's Mass") was declared as December 25th in 350A.D., which predates the whole Islamic religion by over 200 years. Also, Hanukkah was set up as a celebration after the Mosaic law was written and thus is a relatively minor religious holiday compared to Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur, which Israel was commanded to celebrate in scripture. In modern Israel, it's not even a government or official business holiday. The reason why it's as big as it is in America is because of its proximity to Christmas and its tradition of exchanging gifts (which obviously makes it marketable).
quote:Ignorance at work. This "religous backlash" Christian people sometimes (lately) percieve? It's a knee-jerk reaction to coordinated efforts by the Right to shove Christianity down the general populace's throat.
First of all, the most recent American Religious Identification Survey shows that 77% of Americans self-identify as Christian, thus a good majority of the American population shouldn't feel like Christianity is being shoved down their throats.
Second, Christians merely want it to be acknowledged that the Christmas season is about Christmas, which is a celebration of Jesus Christ. To take a religion's holiday, whether you believe in it or not, and to neuter it of any of its meaning and signifigance would be an insult to any religion. If you were take the most sacred of Jewish holidays, Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement), in which Jews seek to atone for their sins against God, removed any mention of God and called it "Self-Reflection Day", I'm sure millions of Jews would be upset.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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"Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a 'Happy Yom Kippur' sign this coming October."
No, but I expect the Jews would.
"Well, Christmas (whose name means 'Christ's Mass') was declared as December 25th in 350A.D., which predates the whole Islamic religion by over 200 years. Also, Hanukkah was set up as a celebration after the Mosaic law was written and thus is a relatively minor religious holiday compared to Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur, which Israel was commanded to celebrate in scripture."
So, Christmas is only 1656 years old. Since the cultural importance of the winter solstice goes back well farther than that, I'm not sure I see how your argument works.
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Just to hit on the whole religious thing... A lot of the practices of the early Catholic Church bother me yet, particularly their co-opting of local religions by twisting them into Christian contexts. In late December, I celebrate the Solstice. My new year starts at sundown October 31st. I enjoy the family-and-friends spirit of the Christmas season, as well as the exchanging of gifts, so I essentially start celebrating on Thanksgiving, carry over through the Feast of St. Steven (I think -- last Sunday in November?), on through Advent, a party for the Solstice, followed by celebrating the rebirth of Mithra starting the evening of the 24th, then Boxing Day on the 26th, and then round out the Twelve Days and end with a party on Twelfth Night -- even though that's dogmatically when the Magi arrived. I incorporate as much of the old pagan (originally meaning only "non-Christian") observances as I can.
All of the Christmas accoutrements predate Christianity's encroachment on those regions. Christmas trees, yule logs, holly, mistletoe, wreaths, tinsel, lights (well, candles)... It was all pagan in origin.
I am multi-denominational, and I like to keep my observances of faith pure. Celtic, Shinto, and Jedi. I was also raised Episcopalian, and I like to keep my religious (as distinct from faith) observances equally pure. I love the ceremony and ritual, but a lot of Christian doctrine is nothing more than medieval superstition writ large.
I believe the universe is alive and aware, to some degree, and I have no real problem calling that awareness "God". I admire and respect the teacher named Yeshua ben Yosef who was born a bit over two millennia ago, and celebrate his birth and death every Easter (but keep it separate from the fertility rites that are what Easter is really about). I belive in a cerain intangible "spirit" that infuses everything (animate or in-) that science is thus far unable to detect or measure in any meaningful way. I belive the universe is full of magickal things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. I belive science and mysticism are equally valid, but by their very natures incompatible with each other's realm. Mystecism is intensely personal, and should not me imposed on others who don't want it. And science is intensely universal, and imposes itself on everyone -- willing or not.
I view hard-core religion as a crutch for people who can't deal with reality. And I know that's going to stir up a few hornets. Tough. You think keeping condoms out of schools is going to revent adolescents from having sex? You think illegalising abortion is going to prevent women from getting them anyway? You think fighting a war for oil is going to help anyone in this country? America could pay for over four hundred million full-ride scholarships to major public universities and still spend less than was spent on the Iraq War last year. Cutting school budgets, veteran's benefits, and combat pay doesn't help either. If there's a serious global concern, we ought to stop fucking around and turn Iran, Iraq, North Korea, and Pakistan into glass parking lots! Otherwise, there a lot more constructive things we could be doing.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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So, without belaboring what has just been pointed out, "Christmas" is hardly the original "reason for the season". It's a misconception by the (as you posinted out) "77% of Americans self-identify as Christian" and dont know any better, and feel threatened by the (admittidly sometimes inane) P.C. treatment the major stores have gone to in order to offend no one.
Which goes to show that you'll always offend someone: even by saying happy Holidays.
Next thing you know, they'll be telling us easter is a Christian holiday too, or that Ramadan has nothing to do with aliens...
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Christmas and abortion don't go together. I just watched "Requiem for a dream" for the first time and I just, I can't stop the montage of christmas eve and an abortion from playing in my mind, fast-pace edited and LOUD NOISES!
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They dont? Well, there goes my idea for a Reeces style ad campaign.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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But yeah, to get one more lash in on this deceased equine, I usually wish people a "Happy Solstice", unless I know them to be of a particular religious/philosophical bent. My girlfriend is Jewish, and likes the double opportunity for prezzies. Her housemate is a Jehovah's Witness, so I don't comment on the season at all.
And I know this doesn't have much to do with abortion on the surface. It's more a general trend of Christianity forcing its views on the world at large.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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quote:All of the Christmas accoutrements predate Christianity's encroachment on those regions. Christmas trees, yule logs, holly, mistletoe, wreaths, tinsel, lights (well, candles)... It was all pagan in origin.
This was actually the Catholic modus operandi in the past. In Mexico during the Conquest, Catholic priests would found churches on top of local sacred sites. It's not unusual to see Christian churches and shrines built on top of much older pyramids. The Virgin of Guadalupe, supposedly an incarnation of the Virgin Mary, was said to have had a native Mexican appearance and to speak Aztec.
The above, however, does not change the fact that Jesus is currently the "reason for the season" and has been for over a millenium. Christmas as the winter solstice is simply not why the majority of Americans celebrate the season.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Cristmas is also the big winner of the "Mass" days. Back in the dark ages the church was afraid of the diefication that many faithful were leaning toward regarding the Angels- thus Michaelmass and Gabriielmass were demoted to "The Mass of Saint Michael/Gabriel...waaay down to earth with Saint Peter and the other humans.
The (alleged) diefication was probably a result of geberations following polytheistic religous belief systems- ya gotta have a god/feast for every little thing.
No need to demnote Jesus to mere sainthood, so as the remaining big Mass/feast day, Christmas got the loin's share of followers, while the othrs have faded into obsurity.
...still, it did not really blow up untill gifts were exchanged and common folks could actually look forward to a religous holiday without all the guilt and ceremony the church so specializes in.
...And now you know the rest of the backstory.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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