quote:Originally posted by Omega: I can't quite pin down the argument that abortionists make. You argue that it's the mother's body and thus her soverign right to do what she pleases. Someone points out that the child has a body too, and you jump to arguing about economic consequences, as if that rendered the previous argument moot. Someone points out that economics is no excuse for immoral action, and you jump to the definition of life. Someone questions why responsibility for one's child created by one's voluntary actions should begin after birth instead of before, and you decide to talk about rape or how laws about paternal child support aren't enforced. Yes, you have legitimate points in some cases, but please try to be a bit more linear, because right now we're just going in circles.
The point is that you're all for telling women that pregnantcy is the result of their irresponsible behavior, yet are against her taking responsibility by ending an unwanted pregnantcy and not bringing another unwanted child into existance... Now that's talking in circles.
The ultimate fact is, it's her body, so it should be her choice what to do with it- weither to let it develop or stop it while it's still pre-sentient. No one should make that choice for her.
quote:Originally posted by Irishman: I've been with my wife during her pregnancy. She never thought of it as a burden, nor developed a psychosis due to the "shock" of said condition.
Do you really want people with temporary psychoses making the decision to end the life growing within them? I don't.
Your wife had you there for her- and I'm sure you both wanted (probably planned for) the child. If she were the victim of rape, you'd likely feel a whole lot diffrent and she would certainly have some trauma over the event. Your instance would never be a burden, because she chose to have the child in advance and with someone she loved and who would be there for her. She wasn't the victim of a crime, or of failed cobtraception. Tell me you can see the diffrence here.
quote:I really don't think you care about these mothers in unwanted pregnancies. I think you just want to be right.
Or I know several mothers that look at having their child as the moment their life went wrong. The moment when their future was forever tied down to raising a child they might now love, but never wanted and could not care for- most when they were still in their mid-teens. None have careers, none went to college and all work full time to support a child... alone.
Most carry that anger around, and it shows in how they treat their kids.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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"I can't quite pin down the argument that abortionists make. You argue that it's the mother's body and thus her soverign right to do what she pleases. Someone points out that the child has a body too, and you jump to arguing about economic consequences, as if that rendered the previous argument moot. Someone points out that economics is no excuse for immoral action, and you jump to the definition of life. Someone questions why responsibility for one's child created by one's voluntary actions should begin after birth instead of before, and you decide to talk about rape or how laws about paternal child support aren't enforced. Yes, you have legitimate points in some cases, but please try to be a bit more linear, because right now we're just going in circles."
You should be a spin doctor. Someone comes up with not only one, but four arguments in their favor, and you turn that into "they can't come up with a coherent argument"?
You're acting like the argument is changing from one moment to the next. It's not. Those arguments are all simultaneous. Those who favor abortion rights believe that zygotes are not alive, that women should make such decisions for themselves, that economic problems play an important role in the issue, and that rape-induced pregnancies should be among the last things anyone would want to legally force. All at the same time.
Perhaps it's the other side that needs to be less "linear". A constant stream of "it's wrong because we believe it's wrong" does not a proper debate make.
"I've been with my wife during her pregnancy. She never thought of it as a burden, nor developed a psychosis due to the 'shock' of said condition."
Well, bully for her. And the other women of child-bearing age in the country? At a guess, I'd say there are probably close to 100 million of them. Have you been with them, too?
Basically, I don't see your point. He said that some women can be very negatively affected, mentally, by pregnancy. And your rebuttal was, "Well, my wife wasn't!".
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1114/MR1114.chap5.html I found this survay after a google search. It seems to indicate (though it is a tad old 1998) that there is very little difference between male and female points of view on abortion. Either way, just because someone has involvement with an issue one way or another, does not mean one should not consider their arguements if logical.
The arguements in favor of abortion may be numerous (as are the arguements opposed), but it seems to me that they are wholly inadequate to support abortion if it is considered murder in the mid/late stages of pregnancy. None of the arguements can justify murder, and following them to their conclusion, newborns would be up for "abortion" as well.
To counter some other arguements [not that any of them matter at all considering the above - except those cases where a womans life is in danger that could lead to some interesting debates (eg, is it okay to kill one to save another? It would only apply if the fetus would have a chance if not aborted)], just because some people have bad childhoods due to crappy parents and economic circumstances, doesn't mean they will lead bad lives, or be similar to their parents at all. Even cripples with deranged fathers can be perfectly happy .
P.S. Zygotes are alive, they are just no more 'alive' then ameobas or cauliflower.
posted
A tad old? Eight years is a whole lotta voters coming of age...and literally millions of kids becoming adults. There are kids that were in elementary school when that survey was done that now have several kids...
quote:P.S. Zygotes are alive, they are just no more 'alive' then ameobas or cauliflower.
And yet, I feel no tears welling up at the "slaughter" of cauliflower that occurs each day.
quote:Even cripples with deranged fathers can be perfectly happy
But not adopted.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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The pro-abortion side can lay out all the well-crafted arguments they want. The fact is, those of us who are pro-life see a murder being committed in abortion. There is no socio-psycho-economic argument that can trump the life or death of an innocent child.
Jason:
Why are you showing anger and hatred towards unborn children? Whether you think you do or not, it comes through in your posts.
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:You're acting like the argument is changing from one moment to the next. It's not. Those arguments are all simultaneous. Those who favor abortion rights believe that zygotes are not alive, that women should make such decisions for themselves, that economic problems play an important role in the issue, and that rape-induced pregnancies should be among the last things anyone would want to legally force. All at the same time.
Some arguments, including this one, take place over time, and thus do change from one moment to the next. I'm not saying that there isn't a coherent multipronged argument, I'm saying it's not being presented well. Every argument of abortionists has a response by the opposite side, but when it's brought up, the abortionist seems to just change to another subject instead of continuing the debate on that point. Eventually you get back to the original point, and thus we talk in circles, with nothing new ever being said. It's more obvious in a much longer thread I'm following on another board, but it seems to happen everywhere.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Oh, and Jason, a wise man once said "life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans".
We all have to deal with that fact, including the mothers of unplanned or unwanted children.
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"The fact is, those of us who are pro-life see a murder being committed in abortion."
The fact is, what you see is irrelevant if you don't back it up with scientific evidence instead of arguments from emotion.
Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:The pro-abortion side can lay out all the well-crafted arguments they want. The fact is, those of us who are pro-life see a murder being committed in abortion. There is no socio-psycho-economic argument that can trump the life or death of an innocent child.
(My emphasis)
You admit to arbitrarily passing judgement beforehand on all social and psychological factors involving abortion/conception because of your intravenous faith and the claim "me and my wife never had a problem with it so why should anyone else have any problems?". I don't know what to say, you lack powers of discrimination.
Registered: Aug 1999
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Actually, it's not your place to grant validity to my perspective. What scientific evidence can you offer that proves that murder is not being committed?
Nim:
You're not arguing with me above. I don't know who you're arguing with. I didn't make that quote. I was simply giving an anecdotal example to help humanize the conversation, which I thought was becoming terribly impersonal.
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Yes, I'm arguing with you, but I prefer to see it as discussion. But what do you mean you didn't write what I quoted? It was a rather poignant display of your standpoint in your reply to TSN, which actually involved my comment about the vast array of social and psychological problems that can threaten mother and child even early on.
And regarding complications before, during of after pregnancy, I suppose you've all heard of Dena Schlosser from Texas?
Excerpt:
quote:Dr. William Reid had testified that people close to Schlosser had missed obvious signs of severe mental illness. John Schlosser, said he wasn't alarmed when his wife said after church the day before the killing that she wanted to "give the baby to God." He said she appeared normal after he calmed her down, and he thought her mental condition had improved over the past few months.
The summer before Maggie died, Schlosser abandoned Maggie and her other two children by running away from the family's apartment. She was found two miles away by Plano police and released from a hospital less than 24 hours later. The Schlosser family went several times a week to the Water of Life Church. The pastor, Doyle Davidson, testified that he believes mental illness is possession by demons and only God can cure it.
Dena Schlosser, who was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis after Maggie's birth, didn't take medication or see a doctor in the four months before the killing. After her arrest, Dena Schlosser was diagnosed with manic depression and declared mentally incompetent to stand trial. But in May, after doctors treated her, a judge found she was competent.
quote:The fact is, what you see is irrelevant if you don't back it up with scientific evidence instead of arguments from emotion.
Where's your scientific evidence that my hitting someone in the face is wrong? Or murder? There is no scientific evidence for any moral theory.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Relevance? Are you suggesting that religion is bad because some people believe mental illness is caused by demonic possession? Or are you making the case that Maggie Schlosser should have been aborted to save her from having her hopes of a life dashed? Or are you saying that shit happens? I don't know that we can make a shit happens law.
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
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