Isaiah 45:7 [said the Lord] "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

"The Ark was being carried in a manner other than that dictated by God. You don't do what God says, and he's got every right to fry you to a crisp."

How very "just and merciful" of Him.

>"Is sending false and confusing prophecies in order to mislead folks an act of "good?""

"Name one."

Okay. 2 Thessalonians 11-12 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

>Is ANYTHING that happened to Job "Good?""

Well, let's see. He became a better person, he ditched those guys that called themselves his friends, he got back what he lost several fold, and God taught Satan a
lesson.

I'm sure that's a great consolation to his murdered sons and daughters.

Hell. The threat of Hell negates free will, at least for all who believe in it.

"Okay, do what you choose, but if you do differently than _I_ want, you're gonna burn in Hell forever."

Yeah, THAT'S conducive to free will.

It's like the redneck $%#* who tells his girlfriend "Ah luv yew, and yew kin leave me iffin' yew want, But iffin yew do, Ah'm gonna get me mah shotgun an' blast yer damn fool haid off..."

Yeah, that's love. Like a STALKER'S love.

I'm everywhere.
I'm always watching.
Do what I want, or suffer horribly.

"Dead men learn no lessons."

That particular line was a joke. Bad taste, I know, but...

"According to your definition, name me one country today that hasn't "fallen away from God." Does God just not care anymore?"

OK, the PEOPLE, then. Back then, a country was essentially held together by everyone believing in the same gods, thus if the country wasn't paying attention to God's laws, then the Jews weren't. The Hebrews were God's chosen people, and they turned away from Him. If you gave someone millions of dollars under the condition that they wouldn't spend it all for at least a year, and they went out and spent it all in a week, wouldn't you wait until you thought they'd changed before giving them more?

"Sounds an awful lot like REVENGE to me."

Revenge for what? What can you possibly do to hurt God? Try punishment.

"I sure noticed a lot of people not doing "what God told them to" in this world. Surely you don't need me to site examples, do you?"

One would assume that they'll be dealt with later. You'll notice that the only people struck dead in the Bible did something that God said He would strike them dead for. If I'm wrong here, let me know. Christ never said anything about striking people dead for anything.

Sol:

"This is a theological problem that people much wiser than myself have been struggling with for ages. How do you reconcile Jesus' "Suffer the little children to come unto me" to the OT's "Only if they don't call anyone names"."

Again, the difference is that the people were not doing what God said.

"To make a crude analogy, this is the same as catching your child writing on the wall and chopping their arm off for it. "

It'd be more like your adolescent teen, to whom you've given a set of rules but refuse to interfere in his life, spending his money on prostitutes, ignoring everything you say, and killing his brothers and sisters. You'd probably disown the kid, then if you ran into him again, treat him just like anyone else (show no mercy).

Are you equating the President to God? (Doesn't Bill wish?) And it's all His to begin with. He can do whatever He wants.

Cargile:

I find that entire post insulting.

1of2:

"How very "just and merciful" of Him."

It was just, and you only get mercy if you ask for it.

"I'm sure that's a great consolation to his murdered sons and daughters."

Satan killed them, if you remember the story, not God.

2 Thess. 2:11-12:

If you don't listen to what God says, when it comes time to choose sides, you're gonna be on the wrong one.

Isa. 45:7:

God is all-powerful and can lift you up or fry you like a salmon.

Amos 3:6:

Everything has a cause. Extending the analogies, if God char-broils a city, He has a reason.

"Hell. The threat of Hell negates free will, at least for all who believe in it."

To again use the adolescent analogy, it's like letting a kid do whatever he wants, but giving him a set of rules to follow. He still has free will, and can choose to follow the rules or not to, but you're gonna punish him if he doesn't.

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"I see you have the ring. And that your Schwartz is as big as mine!
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

How very convenient.

"Back then, a country was essentially held together by everyone believing in the same gods"

Using that definition, do you consider Jews and Muslims "fallen from God" because they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

"it's like letting a kid do whatever he wants, but giving him a set of rules to follow. He still has free will, and can choose to follow the rules or not to, but you're gonna punish him if he doesn't."

That analogy doesn't make as much sense if you look at teenager psychology. Adolescence is period of growth for, but not limited to, the emotional part of the mind. Why do teenagers tend to do risky things and defy their parents? To put it simply, they're testing their boundaries. They want to see what happens if they don't do what parents say, what school says, what society says. Considering this, parents should *expect* their teenager to rebel at one time or another, WHICH brings back another question. Wouldn't God KNOW beyond a doubt that those who disobeyed him were GOING to disobey him? Then, as with Adam and Even, the punishment is a sham.

But, as I said before, you can't learn from your mistakes if you're not alive. I've read lots of stories about teenagers who messed up their lives during adolescence but managed to live a more meaningful life in their twenties (if they're still alive). Even human parents (sane ones) don't kill their rebel teenagers for messing up.

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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".

Those who have done this are responsible for more destruction in their God's name than any evil Satan has ever done.

Listen, anyone can take any verse in the Bible and twist it around to their own benefit. THAT is the problem. People who want to smoke Marijuana can say that God created every herb in the Garden to be used.... but that doesn't meant that God is "Allowing" someone to smoke an illegal substance.... it just means that someone misinterpreted the Bible.

And that's the problem here..... no matter how you slice it, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT GOD WAS SAYING. We never will. We weren't there back then, we don't know what happened, and we sure as hell don't know what's happening now. I'm sure God's up there shaking his head at everyone who misinterpreted him and is probably addicted to mylanta and tylenol by now from all the headaches and heartburn we're causing him. (that was a JOKE, okay?).....

There's seriously no good explanation for Good, and Evil. Theres no good explanation for anything, but there are MANY ways of looking at a problem, and I think each culture had thier own way of solving it. I think every religion was created by a society who NEEDED something to explain things. An all-powerful diety fighting against a just as powerful evil thing works pretty well for that. And it had to be something that you couldn't see, because they could see no reason for it .... so they had to create one. Necessity is the mother of invention? ...

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�From Me all things proceed and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold � all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. ... Know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.�

As far as I can read it, (and I'll bet even Omega will have to agree with me on this), there ARE parts in the Bible where God instructs his followers to attack cities, and kill All the people, men, women, and children, therein.

Our disagreement herein is not over whether it was said, for it most certainly was. The disagreement is over whether it was ethical to give the order, and whether it was ethical to follow it, and what ramifications that has on belief systems.

(In other words, is "when God does it, it isn't immoral" a justification, or an excuse?)

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

Joke or not, I still find it insulting.

Ziyal:

"How very convenient."

No different than the six year old getting killed in a gang shootout. God allowed it to happen, not caused it.

"Using that definition, do you consider Jews and Muslims "fallen from God" because they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah?"

The Muslims weeren't God's people to begin with. I'm still wondering about the Jews. They worship God, but they don't in the way He commanded them to, and the old covenant was repealed when Christ died. Draw your own conclusion.

"They want to see what happens if they don't do what
parents say, what school says, what society says."

Either that, or they just don't want to listen to their parents. Some kids do that. And most teens get back in line at some point.

"Wouldn't God KNOW beyond a doubt that those who disobeyed him were GOING to disobey him?"

Ah, the old "double predestination" argument. Yeah, He would. If He stopped them from doing whatever it was they did that got them condemned for all eternity, it would contradict free will.

Jubes:

"An all-powerful diety fighting against a just as powerful evil thing..."

Hang on just a second! Satan isn't as powerful as God! Nowhere close! God created Satan. Satan had to ask God before bugging Job. This isn't a war that will be won by a narrow margin. It's no contest.

Sol:

Equal to God? Where the heck did you get that idea? "In the image of God" doesn't mean equal to. It just means that we have some characteristic(s) that God has. And I don't think he treats us like cattle. Cattle don't have free will. They go where they're told because they have no choice.

1of2:

Of course I agree with you. You don't think that I just disagree with everything you say just because you're the one that said it, do you? : )

And Bryce is right, all of you. If you want to understand all of this, just sit down with someone who understands and study the Bible. It's all right there.

Was it Ethical? I sure as hell don't know. I don't think anyone does. I'm sure that the people thought it was at the time. I mean, it makes perfect sense in their shoes: "God tells us that city of people are evil and insidious and must be killed so that they are punished for their sins and don't do more evil things."

This is just the same as an argument for the Death Penalty. Do we kill the person because they're evil and should get the ultimate punishment for their crime, and so they don't do it again? ..... OR should we not, because every life is precious and killing them doesn't teach the right lesson?

At the time, "God" gave them what seemed like a good reason. Now... If you can think of no reason on this entire planet when someone or something should be killed, you will not understand this: Simply because you think nothing should be killed at all. BUT, if you understand that sometimes people find a good reason to do something, Wether or not that reason seems to be good to other people, you will understand why these things happen. Right? Wrong? .... IT DOESN'T MATTER. That only starts MORE wars. Evil and Good, as I said before, are all Relative. I may find it a very good thing to kill off a mosquito because it bit me. Someone who collects mosquitoes is going to tell me i'm wrong because they cherish the life of a mosquito. *shrugs*.... different people, different cultures, different times... different ethics.

Omega:

Okay, I worded that wrong. It's not equal power, per se. It's two entirely different TYPES of power, but Satans is a bit more deadly, where God's is not quite the same way. But you have to admit, if Satan had no power, there would be no reason to worry about Evil at all.

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�From Me all things proceed and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold � all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. ... Know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.�

Also while Satan does have power, he can't read minds, or force anyone to do anything. God on the other hand can, but chooses not to (well he does read minds, but doesn't force people to do stuff they don't want to).

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )