posted
Well, first of all, there is an easy way to silence DT.
Cobain and Vedder support evolution.
The problem is, there WAS a time when creation and evolution were both out there and debated. Shortly after a little book by Charles Darwin. "Madness!" cried the scientific establishment. "Completely unsupported!"
Until, after further study, the claims began to change. "Hey, this fits right in with my observations of continental drift!" says one scientist. "These three species are seperated just like Darwin's theory predicted." says another. And so, like any scientific theory, the theory of evolution came to be accepted by scientists the world over.
Unfortunately, while science exists by constantly changing and adapting, there are other forces in the realm of humanity that can only survive through rigid tradition.
------------------ "The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived." -- Soul Coughing
Creationism had, and continues to have, absolutely NO verifiable evidence to back it up, as its main assumption, the existence of a Creator Being, remains unproven and unprovable, while the major assumptions behind Evolution, that of natural selection, the existence of non-harmful mutations, and the observable occurance of speciation (although Omega and those like him are in deep denial about this last bit) in the laboratory, are documented FACTS.
Pointing out the minor apparent flaws (most of which have already been explained, but those explanations are conveniently dismissed or altogether ignored in Creationist publications -- most of which don't contain any reference sources within the past ten years anyway) in one argument, incidentally, does NOT constitute proff of another position.
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
posted
Storks sleep with Coyote's and have cabbage's for babies maybe?
Anyway Mr T, Sol and Omega HAVE gone 50 rounds with each other, usually in the following format:
Omega listed a small error in the theory of evolution. Sol pointed out what was wrong with Omega's appumption, and gave sicetific references to back him up. Omega listed another point. Sol did the same again. And countered that Omega prove Creationism Omega pointed out another flaw in the theory of evolution. Another flaw like the common miconception of the law of thermodynamics, which is something that creationsits always use which science managed to explain a few decades ago. Sol points out Omega's error. Omega ignores this and lists another small problem. Sol screams. Sol dissapears from his house. He returns one week later, with blood all over his hands, muttering "natural selection at work, nothing more" to himself.
------------------ "Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
posted
Ah, excuse me? Small problems? So it's a small problem that the chances of a computer (good analogy for a cell) just being built by random chance AND the programming (DNA) nesesary for said computer to replicate itself being created by a roll of the dice are smaller than the ratio of the mass of an electron to the mass of, oh, say Mars? And it's a small problem that, since evolutionists claim that there was no oxygen in the atmosphere when life formed, there would thus be no O3, thus no o-zone layer, thus the cell would be fried by ultraviolet radiation as soon as it was formed (assuming amino acids can exist in the presence of UV in the first place, of course; not sure here)? And the fact that if a given individual mutated in such a way that they became a new species, they couldn't reproduce with other members of their species by definition, thus that mutation would not be passed on, since, by definition, the individual with the mutation couldn't reproduce; I suppose that's a small problem, too?
------------------ Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works C/O Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu, Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law 1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 18, 1999).]
posted
I like you. You're funny. I say that because these are the exact same arguments that First of Two and I have refuted before. But as the old saw goes, misery loves company. Or, to cop a line from XTC, let's begin.
A computer is a horrible analogy for a cell. Absolutely horrible. Mainly because they have about as much in common as Celine Dion and Bjork.
I'll try and say this as clearly as possible. Evolution does not work through random spattering. There are certain laws that must be obeyed. That's why it's science. To use the example I've used time and time again, if you randomly toss letters out it will take 10^huge number years to get Hamlet. But if you keep what works (as natural selection does) and toss what doesn't (as natural selection does) you can do the whole play (via computer) in just a few days.
"...since evolutionists claim that there was no oxygen in the atmosphere when life formed, there would thus be no O3, thus no o-zone layer, thus the cell would be fried by ultraviolet radiation as soon as it was formed (assuming amino acids can exist in the presence of UV, of course; not sure here)?"
That isn't an "evolutionist claim". It's a simple fact. Free oxygen cannot exist for long without some source creating it. That source is life. (On a side note, this means that if we ever detect a world with large amounts of oxygen in its atmosphere, it's a pretty good bet there is life there too.) Secondly, ultraviolet is damaging to the larger lifeforms we currently see. But there is a whole host of more primitive forms of life that think UV rays tickle. We're talking about bacteria that can survive in the presence of radiation strong enough to turn glass brown. Life is far more hardy than you give it credit for. It is only us bigger and more fragile things that can't take the heat. Luckily for us, such earlier lifeforms happen to create, as a waste product, this nifty gas called oxygen. Unlucky for them, since it's a deadly poison to the sort of bacteria I'm talking about. But their sacrifice made for our breathable air.
"..if a given individual mutated in such a way that they couldn't reproduce with other members of their species, thus becoming a new species, that mutation would not be passed on, since, by definition, the individual with the mutation couldn't reproduce"
Another common misunderstanding of evolution. It doesn't affect individuals, it affects groups. Speciation occurs when enough subtle changes build up in the group's gene pool so as to make them unable to breed with other groups. Besides, the breeding definition of species is by no means an ironclad rule. As you would expect given evolutionary theory, some species are still related enough to interbreed.
You seem to consistantly misrepresent what evolution actually is, and I think that's the source of all this confusion.
------------------ "The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived." -- Soul Coughing
posted
Science geeks: What are you so bleedin phanatical about? Simon himself said that science once thought creation was true. The whole purpose of science is to learn, not to get dogmatic. What if evolution is wrong? Then you'll look stupid. As it is, we will NEVER KNOW.
Religious zealots: Stop being so dogmatic! Did it ever occur to you that you're wrong? I could sit here and rip your doctrines to shreds using nothing but the Bible (but I don't feel like it). Isn't it entirely possible that you may be wrong? Couldn't evolution possibly have happened?
See, that's the mark of a bad idea. It can't stand up against other ideas.
Simon, if your theory is as brilliant as you say, then the kiddies will look at the evidence and come to the conclusion you did.
Omega, if your theory is as iron clad as you say, then the kiddies will have their faith in god reassured.
(god not capitalized, cause I wrote for Pravda pre-1942)
------------------ "Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
"I like you. You're funny. I say that because these are the exact same arguments that First of Two and I have refuted before."
You didn't refute them before. You misunderstood them, and when I explained further, you never replied. And you say I ignore your points...
"A computer is a horrible analogy for a cell. Absolutely horrible."
Sorry, but it's the only thing I could think of that executes it's programming. Or even has programming, for that matter. Any better suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
"I'll try and say this as clearly as possible. Evolution does not work through random spattering. There are certain laws that must be obeyed. That's why it's science. To use the example I've used time and time again, if you randomly toss letters out it will take 10^huge number years to get Hamlet. But if you keep what works (as natural selection does) and toss what doesn't (as natural selection does) you can do the whole play (via computer) in just a few days."
Granted, but natural selection can't come into effect until you have life to work with. With amino acids, you don't have degrees of what works and what doesn't. It either can metabolize and reproduce, or it can't. Thus, life could not have originated by chance (unless you like dealing with numbers that are tens of millions of digits on the right side of a decimal, that is).
"Another common misunderstanding of evolution. It doesn't affect individuals, it affects groups. Speciation occurs when enough subtle changes build up in the group's gene pool so as to make them unable to breed with other groups."
That wouldn't work, because then you could end up with three groups, where A could reproduce with B, and B could reproduce with C, but A couldn't reproduce with C. That doesn't work, because, by definition, if they can reproduce, then they're of the same species. If A can reproduce with B, they're of the same species. If B can reproduce with C, they're of the same species. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Thus A and C are of the same species, and can reproduce. That means that you can not use subtle mutations in whole groups to explain the origins of species.
"Besides, the breeding definition of species is by no means an ironclad rule. As you would expect given evolutionary theory, some species are still related enough to interbreed."
Uh, no. They can't. Again, if two individuals can reproduce, they have to be of the same species, by definition.
DT:
"I could sit here and rip your doctrines to shreds using nothing but the Bible (but I don't feel like it)."
Uh, no. You couldn't. First of Two tried. He failed. You wanna have a go at it, then meet your newest ICQ buddy.
"Couldn't evolution possibly have happened?"
No, at least, not without extreme divine intervention, which is what I'm trying to show you all.
And no one say "All things are possible through Christ...", for I will smite thee mightily.
Liam:
"BTW, I challenge you to go to a school in the UK ad find more that 5 kids who support creationsim. Go on."
And I challenge you to go to any school, anywhere, and find more than five kids who can actually explain the details of either theory. Actually, I challenge you to find five scientists who actually AGREE on the details of evolution. That might be harder.
------------------ Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works C/O Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu, Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law 1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 18, 1999).]
posted
Well, if it is so impossible, then the children obviously won't believe it. So then, what's the problem?
And First is a goddamned heathen. I'm not, I believe every single solitary word in the Bible. That's the difference. Prepare to have a crisis of faith.
------------------ "Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
posted
We are getting close to step eight on Liam's scale there. Luckily, I have been infused with energy from a recent rereading of "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead", several servings of Pepsi, and a brand new cd. Besides that, it gives good source material for my latest project.
"You didn't refute them before. You misunderstood them, and when I explained further, you never replied. And you say I ignore your points..."
On the Twain Scale, that falls under Damn Lie.
"Sorry, but it's the only thing I could think of that executes it's programming. Or even has programming, for that matter. Any better suggestions would be greatly appreciated."
Not bad. Except of course that has almost no relation to a cell, which is a glorified engine.
"Granted, but natural selection can't come into effect until you have life to work with."
Translation: I'd rather twist this subject around some more. "Life" meaning what, exactly? And I have no idea what it is you think amino acids are, or what they do.
And again, you apparently have no idea what a species is. Donkeys are one species, horses are another. And yet they can interbreed. Those offspring are sterile, but so what? That's why the two species are moving apart. You can find several more examples of various groups on the cusp of going their seperate ways.
Though I'm not DT, I feel I should warn you, he's FAR from being in the same camp as First of Two and myself. He's rather skilled at dogma. Personally, I'd like to see the outcome of that particular battle, but hey.
------------------ "The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived." -- Soul Coughing
I don't think it was Twain that said that, but I'm not sure who it was...
"Translation: I'd rather twist this subject around some more. "Life" meaning what, exactly? And I have no idea what it is you think amino acids are, or what they do."
You want me to define life, and you say I'm twisting the subject? *L* OK, let's see. Life, meaning the difference between an inanimate primordial soup and a chain of DNA molecules that is capable of reproducing itself in such a manner that its offspring can also reproduce in a similar fasion; at least, life in the sense we're familiar with, which is what we're talking about. Natural selection doesn't work until something is capable of reproduction, and there can be said to be a population. Thus, before the mythical first cell divided, natural selection couldn't come into play. Thus, obviously, before the first cell was formed, natural selection could play no part, and your idea about it being involved in the formation of said first cell is shot to heck.
"And again, you apparently have no idea what a species is. Donkeys are one species, horses are another."
Not if they can interbreed. Might wanna look up species in a dictionary sometime.
"Though I'm not DT, I feel I should warn you, he's FAR from being in the same camp as First of Two and myself. He's rather skilled at dogma. Personally, I'd like to see the outcome of that particular battle, but hey."
I'll save you a copy of the chat log(s). That is, if DT doesn't mind.
DT:
"Well, if it is so impossible, then the children obviously won't believe it. So then, what's the problem?"
As I said, you probably couldn't find five kids in any given school who could explain the thing. And as for people believing impossible things, there are people out there who think socialism works...
OK, bad example. There are people out there who believe in global warming because they think that 98% of scientists believe in global warming, and they think THAT simply because Alpha Gore said so in that dumb book of his. The last I heard, the number was well under 50%.
"And First is a goddamned heathen."
I'm sure he'll be glad to hear you say that. He does have his reasons for not believing in God, but he doesn't seem to like talking about them very much, so whatever they are, let's not insult him about it, eh?
"I'm not, I believe every single solitary word in the Bible. That's the difference. Prepare to have a crisis of faith."
*puts on his armor and brandishes the sword of the word*
You're on!
------------------ Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works C/O Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu, Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law 1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza Dis, The Nether Regions
posted
Okay, I feel worringly like I'm in 'The one where Heckles dies", but are you saying that over half the scientists in the world don't belive in the greenhouse effect?
"And I challenge you to go to any school, anywhere, and find more than five kids who can actually explain the details of either theory"
Unfair. I think you'd have trouble finding 5 kids who can explain how television works. It doesn't mean that they believe that magical fairies inhabit the box acting out drama does it?
Actually, could someone PLEASE explain to me exactly what the theory of creationism is anyway?
------------------ "Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
posted
BTW, the donkey/horse thig is one of the oldest species arguments going. And is really simple. They are different species, because their mutual ofspring - the ass - is sterile. Maybe YOU should go and look up the definition of "species".
------------------ "Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
"...are you saying that over half the scientists in the world don't belive in the greenhouse effect?"
No, I'm saying that over 50% of scientists don't believe in global warming. There's a difference between that and the greenhouse effect. Well over 90% of greenhouse gasses are natural.
"I think you'd have trouble finding 5 kids who can explain how television works."
True, but most kids don't care, either. They don't believe one explination or another. Most kids who believe evolution (or my particular creation beliefs, for that matter, not that you could find many at all) believe it without knowing how it supposedly works.
And I did look up species.
------------------ Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works C/O Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu, Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law 1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza Dis, The Nether Regions
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