spe-cies \'sp�-(,)sh�z, -(,)s�z\ n, pl species (1551) 1 d (1): a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name
/definition
And I remind you that there are breeds of mule that are not sterile.
------------------ Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works C/O Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu, Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law 1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza Dis, The Nether Regions
Well, for the "goddamned" part, let's let whatever God exists make the final judgement on that, shall we?
Heathen: 1. One who adheres to a religion that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism. I suppose you could call a Deist that, except that I don't really 'adhere' to any organized religion.
2. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened. Yes, no, and no, respectively.
Okay, now that that's out of the way, I'm perfectly capable of talking about the multitude of reasons for my lack of belief in the Judeo-Christian God As Advertised. But this thread is not the proper place.
I say again, pointing out percieved problems with evolution details as a defense of creationist dogma is COMPLETELY INADEQUATE. Especially since one could go on for years citing problems with Biblical details, contradictions, and inadequacies, as retaliatory "proof" against the existence of the JudeoChristian God As Advertised, which in its turn would get no closer to "proving" evolution.
So take another tack, prove the "God Hypothesis" incontrovertibly, or pipe down.
Furthermore: "Life, meaning the difference between an inanimate primordial soup and a chain of DNA molecules that is capable of reproducing itself in such a manner that its offspring can also reproduce in a similar fasion; at least, life in the sense we're familiar with, which iswhat we're talking about. Natural selection doesn't work until something is capable of reproduction, and there can be said to be a population. Thus, before the mythical first cell divided, natural selection couldn't come into play. Thus, obviously, before the first cell was formed, natural selection could play no part, and your idea about it being involved in the formation of said first cell is shot to heck."
is completely incorrect. 1.) A VonNeumann machine could self replicate, but would not be alive. This is irrelevant, except as a refutation of your definition of life as being self-replicating.
2.) Cells are not the smallest things which self-replicate. The smallest DNA strand can do it, and perhaps there are other amino acids that can, as well. In fact, there appears to be a single protein which DNA uses as a catalyst for self-replication. Protein molecules, easily found in nature, are capable of action, and are not even as complicated as DNA.
3.) Most nucleotides are nonsense, but the number of ways to put nucleotides together to perform a USEFUL function (ie, one BENEFICIAL to life) is stupefyingly large.. probably greater than the number of electrons in the universe.
4.) " Natural selection doesn't work until something is capable of reproduction" is a misstatement, at BEST. Natural selection, usually, precludes something from having offspring, often by killing it before it can reproduce. Therefore, the possibilities for something to be 'deselected' before 'the first cell divides' exist.
5.) and of course, the assertion you make that I just spoke of also discounts the SECOND main pillar of evolution, Mutation. I am a mutant. YOU are a mutant. Every single human being contains genetic changes that were not presint in either parent's DNA. Usually 100 or so, but generally only 3 may have any beneficial or ill effects, assuming what they do doesn't cancle each other out. (Hence people with better than 20/20 vision, people with increased lung capacity or ability to metabolize foods, as well as people with cystic fibrosis and certain other defects.)
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 19, 1999).]
posted
First: Yes, you're a goddamned heathen and a nerd :-)
Seriously though, for what I Was trying to contrast, the situation works. DOn't worry, a lot of my friends are heathens or, even worse, Catholics. So I won't hold it against you.
Liam: Anyone who knows the names of the episodes of Friends certainly has my respect :-)
Omega: Bring it on! BTW, I'm always in privacy mode, so you just need to take a shot in the dark.
And incidentally, Brutus was the most noble Roman of them all, for all but he did what they did out of envy of Great Caesar.
------------------ "Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
posted
I will offer the fact that many amino acids as well as DNA is self-forming... From a chemical point of view, organic molecules are quite good at forming by themselves, or with a bit of a push with energy(heat/light/electricity).
------------------ "I suppose you thought I was dead? No such thing. Don't flatter yourselves that I haven't got my eye upon you. I am wide awake, and you give plenty to look at." Household Words, Aug. 24, 1850 From the Raven in the Happy Family
posted
Oh my...I started to read this stuff and then thought better.
Lemme just say one of my four Bio textbooks was on Creation and other Bio things in relation to Christianity. There were maybe 10 different "Creation" theories in the book. It would be impossible to teach just one, besides all of Science is based on concepts of Darwin so to get rid of Evolution is to get rid of science.
But before you guys say I have given in let me just say my Bio prof ingrained Creation in us, but my Bible professor ripped the "laymen's" idea of Creationism apart and told us it wasn't BIBLICAL. And he is right. Every sect of the Judo/Christian/Islamic faiths have a slightly different take on Creationism. It cannot be taught right at the high school level so don't teach it at all.
I think there is a Creation concept not yet discovered that is correct, but someone has to find it. It's just too complex an issue for some half-baked school board to decide whose Creation theory they should teach.
Oh and tothe person from the Catholic school and the four authors of Genesis. Sorry you had to hear that, they were way off.
------------------ With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.
posted
*Cannot believe they called Darwin a racist*
BTW, the exact definition of species is still in dispute so to say whether or not a mule is one depends on who you talk to.
AND, a properly educated Christian will say that science was created by God and therefore the two do not conflict. ------------------ With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing. -Not right now, I'M ON BREAK!
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited December 22, 1999).]
posted
However, no matter whether you are a creationist, evolutionist, or scientific creationist (there is such a thing, you know) you still run the risk of interpreting the facts to suit your theory, rather than altering your theory to account for the facts.
Then of course, there's that little problem that crops up when you either get your facts wrong or your misinterpret the facts. Getting angry because someone disagrees with you is absurd. Either they can't see that you are right, you are wrong, or you're both wrong. There's a slim chance that you're both right, but the probability for that case approaches zero.
Your best bet is to lay out your case, and hope that the other person understands what you are trying to tell them. Agreement is optional.
And I also agree with Bryce... properly trained creationists SHOULD agree that God created science, and thus science and creation are not in conflict.... think "guided evolution".... sure, we evolved, but maybe someone came up with that plan of evolution? Just a thought...
~LOA
------------------ "The battle is raging inside my weary heart screaming for me to let it all go... My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore... the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
posted
Well, the School Board meeting, that started this thread, was rebroadcast night before last, so I finnally got to see most of it. I got to see Rev. Randy Wilson get up and preach a short sermon, a couple of other pasters, and some teachers on both sides of the issue. The most disturbing part of the meeting, was that they were all stupid. Both sides, pastors, teachers, didn't matter which side of the issue they were on, this meeting brought out everything that is wrong in our state. teachers that can't speak to a crowd, which is a big part of there jobs. Preachers that have no clue about what passes before their eyes, because their eyes are closed, as are their minds. This seemed true for about 98% of the speakers that I saw. The meeting took a break about 9pm, and I had things to do, I know I missed at least 6 speakers, I hope one of them had some sence. At least the school board did.
On a side note, the board is about to be under investigation. The former head of state schools, while applying for a similar job in Las Vegas, told the board there that businesses here had paid for his house and a country club membership, along with a few other things. They told him they would need more detail, and he refused. But word got back here, and since it is Illegal in West Virginia, he is not only out of a job he is now under investigation.
------------------ Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!! Gandalf
[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited December 23, 1999).]
posted
Take a chill pill, Fabrux. Catholicism can be as doctrinal and eccentric as any religion, and has the added amusement of being organized along beaurocratic lines -- a potential source of vast amusement even in non-religious entities.
It may be quite possible that DT is (or was) Catholic, and therefore can joke about the matter with impunity. A sense of humor -- don't leave home without it.
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