Frankly, their army and air force don't matter. I'll still post my analysis when I find my numbers, but it's academic. We are discussing the United States of America. The only non-naval threat it faces is from Mexico (Canada too, but Mexico is a legitimate threat to attack the US when their government collapses). If you can figure out how China would attack the US, please tell me. If you can figure out how the PLA would attack the US, please tell me how. (I'll tell you, the Korean border)

First makes some good points in regards to allies. I'd like to tackle those at another time. I'll however tackle the nuclear issue now.

Who cares? I don't. Why should you? If they fire on the US, the US fires on them. It's just that easy. We're all too dead afterwards to care. So what does it matter what China has? They'll never reach the levels of the US and Russia (and if they did, so what?). As my conservative pal pointed out, there is no way to shoot down ICBMs. So why worry? What we should be doing is working to disarm the US and these other countries. You don't do this by spending MORE! You do this on fostering cooperation. By spitting in the face of these old treaties with the Soviets, the US is ensuring the world becomes more dangerous.

Now, as for those conservative friends of mine...

Taiwan... well, as long as the US supports them, China won't nuke them. China nukes them, US nukes China, good night everyone. This ain't Commander and Conquer or whatever computer game it is you people play. No one is going to use nukes. Ever. Cause if you use them, everyone does. Thus, it's over. The Taiwanese can sleep safely.

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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

That's why they ordered the Su-27. That's why India ordered the T-90.

But China's procurement of those planes (or rather, their attempted procurement) doesn't bother the rational thinking man. They'd need to put all of those into air wings, which is not likely, as India will buy the same weapons from Russia. Now, unless India is going to join NATO, that's not a threat to America. Moreover, the F-22 is still a marginally superior plane, produced in higher quantities, and with better crews.

The key to everything I said there is "better crews." Anyone remember when that F-14 shot down a MiG-29 over Serbia? If we went straight on planes, that American motherfucker would've been dead (as he deserved for violating Serbian sovereignty). But he wasn't. Because a better trained pilot can beat the better plane. I reccomend you go back and read the tactical theories formulated by the German aces of WWI. They've held true for 80 years. China's pilots get less air time than, say, German pilots.

BTW, I was just perusing the DoD. Who do you think they said is more likely to be a peer? Russia or China?

Well, the Sukhoi 27 is inferior to the F-15E and vastly inverior to the F-22. So, even if you believe in the falty notion that planes are more important than pilots, that pretty much ruins your theory about China. Hell, Vietnam has 14 of those, and about 24 more ordered. They're common. (incidentally, Vietnam is quickly become a modern military)

I suggest you double check and see if they're really Su-36s.

Granted, the F-22 will be highly superior, if it ever gets off the ground. And once full scale production of the F-18E/F and the JSF[X-32/35] begin, noone will come close to having the air superiority the USAF will.

(DT, I'm really impressed with your research on this particular subject. There's no blatent, biased, uneducated opinons (Well, not many ), but you seem to know what you're talking about.)

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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

(I know they'e both not really Fighter aircraft, but it was just an example.)

I would imagine, then, if you were to rate air forces by the skill level and the ability to use what they have, that China would be pretty low. So would Russia, due to the lack of training many of the pilots recieve. I think Israel or Britain might be near the top. (Oh, and Canada too! With our 79 F-18's! )

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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

Ah, now THAT's the state's-rights, 'Sovreignty Uber Alles' DT I remember.

Careful, Omega might agree with you. Then you'll be screwed.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

First: States rights in the correct sense, not in the connotative. This goes to how one interperts the constitution. Since the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is a sovereign state (as opposed to Alabama) it is granted rights that an American state should not have.

Omega: Nuremberg.

Ultra: Thank you. But I generally prefer making off-the-wall assessments :-)

Actually, (here you go Simon and Jay) the information was needed in the work I do for the Field Marshal Military Project!!!
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net

It's the place to be!

Oh, and in case anyone doesn't know, Nuremburg was where the Nazi war criminals were tried after WW2. There were 22 of them, IIRC. A good number got the death sentance, but one managed to escape execution by getting his hands on some poison (his name escapes me). Their main defense was that they were only following orders. IMHO, IT deserves the title of "Trial of the Century", not that piddling O.J. trial or the impeachment, but considering that nine out of ten people on the street probably haven't even heard of it...

However, you're drawing a distinction which shouldn't be. Violating airspace, yes. But this was in a war of agression. Under the Nuremberg decisions, that is the worst war crime of all, and supercedes the other crimes of war. Now, we can debate whether the war was just or not. But it was, legally, a war of agression. Thus, by engaging in it, even if only following orders, that pilot deserved to be disciplined through either life in prison or death by hanging.

--Baloo

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"Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly, for the same reason."
--(Unknown)
Come Hither and Yawn...

You'll find it at: http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net

And yeah, we're looking for volunteers!

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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".

Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".