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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Poverty, I'm sorry, is no excuse.
I live in one of the poorest areas in the country, and I have NEVER seen anyone who was driven to steal, or committ any other crime, because they actually NEEDED to. (Of course, in the US today, you're considered below the poverty line if you don't have your own microwave...)

And the true statistics on drug rehabilitation aren't promising, either. I don't have sympathy for druggies. It's a case of "you knew what you were getting into when you started."

How is a gun in your safe going to protect you, if someone breaks in your bedroom window while you sleep?

How is waiting three weeks going to save someone whose life was threatened yesterday? Generally, people don't say "I'm going to kill you" and then wait three weeks to make the attempt.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

At any rate, First, I don't find your argument convincing. For one thing, unless you believe in the evil gene (Possessed by Hitler and Walt Disney, IIRC.), you cannot deny the role that environment plays in our development. That certainly doesn't constitute a get out of jail free card, but to ignore the root causes is like brushing your teeth with sugar and making up for it with lots of dental insurance.

Also, you seem to present two unrelated arguments. The first, embodied by the original post, is that access to a gun leads to lower crime rates. I can't endorse or denounce this idea due to my own ignorance of the numbers involved, but I won't deny its possibility. However, you, and it seems most gun advocates, hop over to the conclusion that immediate access to guns is even better. But where is the evidence? I've read scads of these sorts of stories, and I can't remember a single one where the person in question had needed to purchase their gun that very day because of some prior threat.

I think the problem is that both sides fear that depolarizing the issue will lead to a sharp decline in their respective coffers. I mean, I can't imagine the slogans "Hey, maybe not everyone who owns a hand gun is the spawn of Satan." or "You know, I guess I really don't need this uzi to protect myself from the taxman." would be very attractive to the fundraisers.

But to the question at hand... who keeps a safe in the room they sleep in? (I'm sure you're aware that most robberies occur between midnight and 6 AM) My home safe is in my father's den. Which is in the 1/2 basement, past the living room stairs. If the bad guy were between the bedrooms and the stairs, this would be BAD.
If your home invader is the type who doesn't like witnesses, he's likely to head for the sleeping quarters first. This gives you a few moments, which is NOT the time to be fumbling for keys or a combination.

As for the 'evil' gene... don't knock it, yet. Let's wait and see what the folks at Human Genome Project find out.
Until then, it's all a matter of whether you believe human beings have free will or not. I happen to believe that they do. The idea that people MUST do a certain thing is ludicrous. To use an example close to my heart, some, perhaps most, abused children become abusive adults. This is often used as an excuse. However, there are examples of abused children who end up being the nicest people you could possibly imagine. My gf, for one.

Therefore, environment is NOT a predetermining condition. ONLY decisions are. You CHOOSE to lie, cheat, steal, or NOT. EVERY adult human being, the mentally ill or vegetative excepted, has the capacity to say *Kirkspeak* "I will not kill today." (or rob, or rape, or whatever).

It's just that very few of us realize that. I mean, _I_ could do just about any crime, too, but I don't. I've had means, motive, and opportunity. But I haven't used them. I COULD, there's no doubt in my mind as to that, but I WON'T. I CHOOSE not to. It really is that simple. You could drop me on the street, city or country, with LESS than your average poor person has, and I'd be able to survive without resorting to any seriously illegal behavior. And I really don't think I'm a better person than anybody else. Am I?

Admittedly, I've had reason to be very big on self-control, as it's been a major issue in my life for a long time (I can really identify with my tagline.) Perhaps not enough people are taught control of that sort. Perhaps that's what we need to be looking at.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

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Baloo, I'm not saying that people should not have guns. End of story. QED. There are responsible gun owners out there.

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I agree. There are, and they are a very large majority.

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I think the US would greatly benefit from the adoption of a weapons control program similar to that of Australia. This means that you can apply for a license which allows for certain types of civilian authorised rifles and pistols. To get the license they'll do all the usuall checks. This takes maybe 3 weeks.

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The U.S. gun laws require one to fill out a form that includes a lot of information about you, including history of mental health, criminal record, etc. (a long list). There used to be a one-week wait while they checked to see if you were ineligible to own a gun, but the local gun shop now can call a toll-free number and read the information to a representative from ATF, who checks it against his database. If you are legally eligible to own a gun (read that: no disqualifying characteristics, such as being underage, having been convicted of a felony, etc.) you may purchase the gun. The folks at the local gun shop would be more than happy to hold you for the police if you turned out to be a convicted felon or a parolee, since it's illegal to attempt to purchase a gun in that case.

The procedure for purchasing a rifle is similar, but somewhat different. To purchase a muzzle-loading rifle, musket, or caplock revolver, you don't have to show anything except cash, but the percentage of blackpowder weapons used in crime is almost (if not actually) zero (the reload time alone would give the cops plenty of time to arrest you before you were a significant danger, having fired once).

So tell me. How does waiting three weeks before I can take that puppy out to the range keep me safe?

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After that you have to purchase 1 weapon at a time, and register each one with your local station.

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And what if I want that matched set of pistols for the Single-Action Shooting Society target shoot? Or a pistol and a rifle? Or a varmint gun for coyotes and a .22 revolver for rats and snakes in the barn?

And the police don't have a need to know what I own unless it requires a special license (in which case they will).

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At home, the weapon must be kept in a govt approved safe at all times, unless in transit to or from a shooting range.

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1. That's my responsibility, not theirs.
   
2. What if I want to go shooting on public land (or private property, with the owner's permission)? That's legal here as long as you take the proper safety precautions.
   
3. What if I want to take it to a friend so he can see it or explain the proper way to care for it?
   
4. How do they know you are going to the range? Do you have to call them in advance? Do you have to have a special permit? Is it legal to stop for a soda and a sandwich along the way?
   
5. And who has the right to enter my house to check all this anyway? I'd like to see a search warrant before tolerating such an invasion of privacy.

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This system basically ensures that people who are fit to own a weapon do so.

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Ours does, too. Of course, that's only when they follow the rules, and that applies to the Australian model as well. The folks who want illegal things badly enough will either get arrested, tried, and convicted (good!) or they will find a way to get what they want without getting caught (bad, of course).

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Afterall, how many shootings are there in Australia? Even % wise.

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I don't know. You live there. You tell me?

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I don't see why a law abiding US citizen would have a problem with that, afterall, if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem? This law actually protects you.

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"If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?"
?!?

Well, if the appointed officials are trustworthy and honest, they'll keep their noses out of other people's business until they have evidence that the law is being violated. That's part of what the privacy laws are for in the U.S. Never mind guns, for a moment. What if the local gendarmes decide they don't like the cut of your jib? It's happened before (not to me thankfully) and I like having the protection of the law from it's enforcers. Under the law they can't abuse my freedoms just because they want to have some amusement at my expense.

That law protects you only as far as the police are willing and able (and don't have conflicting priorities). That is not much of a guarantee.

I believe the current laws are adequate, when enforced (and I believe they are. Locally, anyhow).

--Baloo

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"Lassie, her ears pricked up!"
--Atoth the Tamarian [From "Star Trek: Door Repair Guy"]
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/

Oh, here's something. DESPITE the fact that it's illegal to try to buy a gun under the circumstances Baloo mentioned above (that is, if your name shows up on the 'bad' database check), and despite the fact that a small number of people HAVE been stopped that way (most of the figures on this usually quoted also include computer or operator errors, which are unpleasantly inconvenient for the buyer in that case),

NOONE has been charged and prosecuted for the attempt.
Hello? Enforcement of existing laws, please?

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

These people exist. They ususally don't give three-week notice of just when they're going to become murderous.

And everybody's seen enough tragedies on the news to know a restraining order is only worth the paper its printed on.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Sure, but not many gun owners do that, they aren't that honest. In many shooting stories I hear, the murderer got his hands on a gun from a regular gun owner just like that. Whether the gun owner went through the database is unclear. This shows how easy it is (unfortunately) to obtain such a dangerous weapon. The owner probably didn't care or wanted the cash.

Dad would be appalled.

Not all abusive people become violent enough to kill. Not EVERY batterer goes after his wife/girlfriend after she leaves him. If they did, wouldn't there be a screaming case to lock all such people up forever?
Not all killers have killed before, and since in many states lethal force is justifiable ONLY when your life is in danger... how can you know for certain if your life is in danger until the incident happens? And isn't it better to be prepared beforehand? Even the POLICE will tell you they can't do anything until a violent incident occurs. Why wait?

In effect, you're saying that anybody who doesn't recognize the pattern of behaviour (and it's not all that easy, trust me ,in some of the instances above, - like the guy who won't let it go - past behaviour can remain totally unknown) and take their self-protective steps beforehand, deserves it for not having the foresight. That's a vile concept.

As to the comments in the prior post about gun owners... what utter folderol. Most gun owners are WELL aware that it's illegal to transfer guns under the table, and in the current climate, only the very stupid would do so. (And you already know my feelings towards the very stupid) My father used to sell guns (now he sells antique furniture, coz it's harder to get sued if an idiot hurts themselves with furniture), and he absolutely refused to sell to anyone he didn't know very well, or anyone who didn't have a spotless record.

Anybody who sells guns 'under the table' should be severely prosecuted under the numerous laws that already exist... and doubly so if the said firearm is used in a crime.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

The guy who sold a gun to the two Columbine shooters could get up to 5 years from what I'm told.