I find this to be very interesting, especially in the fact that you seem to think "miracle" healings happen in only one culture or one religion and are some sort of isolated event.
Well they're not.
As a matter of fact, it is proven that if you THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE HEALED, YOU WILL BE. Why is this?.. the power of believing is the thing that specifies the "truth" as we know it. So there you have it. You went in, believed you were feeling things, believed you were being healed, and then you were.
This is not necessarily attributed to any sort of power of a higher being, namely your Christian God. As a matter of fact, i can quote many passages in the bible that state that God no longer has dealings with the body of man in that sort of context..... though miracles can sometimes occur it is more likely that your "miracle" can be summed up to the simple healing power of the mind.
As a matter of fact, this his how shamans and pagans have been healing people successfully for years.
so :-P
That's all i have to say about that.
Adios, your Resident Witch
------------------ "You say don't fear your dreams, it's easier than it seems. You say you'd never let me fall, from hopes so high. But never is a promise, and you can't afford to lie." - Fiona Apple
posted
Okay, I only spotted this little discussion recently and, being a cold, impassive, scientific atheist, I have to voice my opinion. Feel free to flame me.
Miracles are bullsh*t,
All religions are a form of brainwashing( I once wrote an essay on the basis of religion in the human psychi, I'll dig it up and scan it in some time ),
God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and other machinations of religious freaks' imaginations DO NOT EXIST!!
There is some truth to what Jubilee was saying about the power of the mind, the observed effect being due to the conscious part of the brain's influence on the subconscious part of the brain, which controls the level of endorphins and hormones in the body, and so may cause healing effects.
Now, before I get condemn'd to th'fiery depths of Hell, I'd like to let everyone know that up until 5 years ago(I was 16), I was an extremely devout Catholic with a strong faith, due to my upbringing, in Dog, beg your pardon, in God. Science saved me from a lifetime of superstition, taboo, and religion. It pains me to see people like bryce led to believe in such nonsense.
------------------ Try not. Do. Or Do not. There is no try.
[This message has been edited by Gurgeh (edited April 15, 2000).]
posted
How nice of you to voice your opinion and back it up with evidence/and or facts. (Or at least a reason, and not blind rhetoric)
Saying "God Does Not Exist" in an argument about religion carries the same weight as this guy's "Testimony". It's not going to enlighten people one bit, and you come off as an agressive, opinionated ass-head (No offense) who is no less stubborn than Jack Van Impish and other religious zealots.
Religion is a personal choice. We all make the decision in what to believe in ourselves, based on what we need, what we desire, and evidence placed before us.
Trying to combat an argument about the existance of Miracles by saying Religion is brainwashing and that miracles are bullshit, well, you are entitled to your opinion, but try to actually argue the points next time.
------------------ "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." -Mark Twain
I mean really, people who argue without any basis in data and logic, just chiming in, are fine, except that they'll never get taken seriously. And they make the rest of us honest skeptics look bad.
Now, the fact that you're coming to us in this manner, having come out of Catholicism isn't entirely surprising to me, as most of the people I know who were raised Cath. and then left it remain very angry at the church. Apparently, they weren't always treated in a civilized manner. Never having been a Catholic, I can't really comment in detail on the lifestyle.
I myself, was baptized a Methodist, mostly to please my grandmother, and I went to church, though the more I think on it the more I understand that my upbringing leaned toward the agnostic side, and my "faith" was never really indoctrinated. It was much easier for me to leave, when the time finally came. I don't hold much ill will towards my old church, except about the petty politicking and the harshness of a few stupid old people.
Now if you want to go after the validity of "faith healing," really the first thing to do would be to challenge someone to have it done in a clinical setting, with a full battery of tests before and after each session, to show any results. (Amazingly, *wink* no faith healer I know of has ever done this.)
Or compare it to Voodoo. It's been demonstrated that if someone BELIEVES in Voodoo strongly enough, and then is 'cursed' they'll get sick, perhaps even die. As Jubes said, the human brain is a remarkable machine, and it's capable of a lot more control over the body than it's given credit for. Ask some of those Yoga types who can stuff themselves into body, or attain such mastery of control over pain that they can stick sharp objects in themselves without significant harm.
------------------ "Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
posted
Still, symptom relief is valid as long as it does not harm others. My right to take ibuprophin ends where your pocket begins, as it were.
My grandmother (dad's mom) was a very religious woman, sanctimonious without wanting to seem so -- she was a really nice lady in serious denial. She had been a dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist all her life, and believed very fervently that all non-Baptists were going straight to hell on greased rails (and she wasn't too sure about those other, non-Southern Baptists, either ).
When I was in my late teens, Grandma contracted a serious, untreatable abdominal difficulty involving tumors, loads of immobilizing pain, and probable death within a year. I think it was much more serious, but my folks were trying to shield me -- and that was what they thought was okay to tell me.
One of her "lost" (nondenominational) friends invited her to go to church with her. Grandma went with her because she liked her friend (she used to make a point about mentioning that she hoped her friend -- already a Christian -- would get "saved. I presume she meant her friend would see the error of her ways and become a Baptist, preferably Southern ). She was sitting in the back of the church, not paying particular attention to the sermon, when she felt a warm sensation -- almost like sitting in a warm shaft of sunlight. As the warmth seeped into her body, she felt the pain dissolving from her abdomen. By the end of the sermon, the pain was completely gone.
Grandma, skeptic that she was, did not tell anyone until she could get checked out by her doctor. He was amazed -- she had no sign of disease. Mind you, she was still diabetic and had to watch what she ate, but whatever had prompted the doctors to advise her to get her affairs in order right away was gone. More importantly, this formerly holier-than-thou, worry-wartish, judgemental woman we loved just because she was grandma (and not because she was particularly like Mary Poppins) became a warm, caring, accepting person. That transformation was more dramatic than her improvement in health, and if any miracle had occurred, it was the greater one.
Of course, the doctors could have simply misdiagnosed a non-lethal, temporary condition, but the change in her whole outlook on life and the way she dealt with other people was quite a different story.
Grandma attributed her healing to God giving her a second chance. I can provide no evidence to contradict her conclusion, and any attempt to provide a "rational" explaination for what happened would only be rationalization.
posted
Can I go back to something Ultra said for a moment? He said that religion is a personal choice. The thing is, in most cases, it isn't. Most people are indoctrinated from the time they're born, and they fervently believe in their religion because it was burned into their brains when they were young. Think about it. If you had been raised to age twenty without any knowledge of any sort of religion, and then someone sat you down and explained every single religion in the world to you, are you absolutely certain you would pick the one you're in now (this only applies to people who didn't actually pick their religion themselves, just those who stuck w/ what they were raised in)? Or, better yet, if you had been raised in a different religion, do you think you would have switched over to the one you're in now (again, this doesn't apply if you're one of the few who did do that)?
The other thing is that most people seem to think that religion is a free choice, as long as you choose theirs. Even in a country as big on religious freedom as the US, there are numerous official references to a Mr. "God". "In God we trust", "one nation under God", etc. Just try to tell me this isn't an establishment of religion. "Oh, sure, you can believe in whatever religion you want, as long as you believe in our god."
Maybe if religion really were a matter of personal choice, and if everyone could accept that, we wouldn't have all these problems...
------------------ "Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!" -Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
posted
Maybe parents should tell their kids that they may not, under any circumstances, join any religion until they're 18. Then all the teenagers will be crowding to churches, mosques, etc.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "It's easy to learn to drive a golf cart, but it's hard to express yourself in one." - Larry Wall
posted
Well, this is starting to turn into a religious debate, which means it cannot be ended. And endless arguments belong in the Flameboard. So off with ye!
(Just a sidenote, but an important one: Don't take this move as a judgement on the quality of the arguments inside. I'm merely moving the thread to a more appropriate venue.)
------------------ "What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity." -- Camper Van Beethoven
posted
TSN: Yeah, I noticed that after I wrote it. I guess I should have clarified that is isn't for most people, expecially ones with feverently religious parents.
As for the discussion, I know Miracles are real, I see them on that 'Miracles' show on Space every once in a while. Plus, that milk-drinking Elephant, I mean, who can doubt that?
------------------ "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." -Mark Twain
posted
In response to Ultra's suspiciously defensive response to my (admittedly a little aggressive) post, I would like to reiterate TSN's point that for most people, religion is not a matter of personal choice. Religions perpetuate themselves by exploiting the filial bond. For example, let's just say a person's parents are devoutly Catholic(I choose Catholicism because, although it does not have extrovertly barbaric practices such as circumcision, it is, in my opinion, just as insidious in its propagation as any other I can think of). The Catholic church, the more one thinks about it, is a machine dedicated to increasing its size and power. It does not permit the use of contraceptives or abortion, it wants big families of God-fearing Catholics. It is only natural to follow ones parents when growing up, we all as young children looked up to our parents and never doubted that what they believed was true. So, what you get is this cycle, where the religious beliefs are passed down from parent to child, and so on, with each generation of children having little in the way of choice. If anyone doubts this, there is a film called "A Love Divided" which, I think illustrates this point adequately without expanding the truth. Some of you may now say that I just have a big grudge against the church. However, I would not care about much of the above if I thought what they were saying was actually true. But I don't. As for "evidence" that God does not exist, well, to illustrate the folly of trying to prove that God does not exist, let me give an analogy: As many of you may know, a mercury barometer consists of a tube of mercury upturned, with its opening immersed in mercury.
Now, what holds the ~76cm of mercury up? Back in the middle ages, "theories" were proposed which stated that the mercury was held up by angels from heaven using invisible strings. Is there anyone here who does not believe this theory which I am perfectly entitled to have? If so, try to disprove it. Maybe Ultra would like to try. The point I am trying to make is, without trivialising peoples beliefs too much, is that belief in a God is an inherently unscientific practice, and therefore can not be disproved by scientific, logical, or factual means.
------------------ Try not. Do. Or Do not. There is no try.
posted
Very fascinating speech, Guregh. But you didn't answer my question. In fact, no one did. This is one topic that I will not sit by and be ignored, like so many other conversations in which I get ignored...
------------------ "Keep on Trekking" -D. Kelly
[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited April 17, 2000).]
posted
I'm not so sure I agree with you Guresh on what religion is... It can be a personal choice.
Myself, although I don't follow a certain religion, I have chosen my beliefs. Whether or not they pertain to a religion or not doesn't matter. These ideas weren't forced on me. I chose Him. People get the wrong idea about God. He wants us to choose him, and in the end it is ultimately our choice. That is why I think many religions have it wrong nowadays. Too many of them are all about forcing their views onto each other, when they should be letting people choose instead.
------------------ "No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob
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