posted
Man I hate to chime in after so much has been written (mostly cause I'm gonna get slammed again), but Fabrux raised a good point. I think the various Christian religions may get so much heat because most are nothing like the original Christian congregation. And despite a definition posted way up there of Christianity, a Christian means simply "a follower of Christ." I don't think most of the "Christian" denominations can claim to do things the way Jesus and the Apostles and the first century congregation did them. But that's me...
------------------ "A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Since that we're all suppose to be God's children, if a relatively nice person needs help, does he(she) has to "pray" for it? What happens if he(she) is not a Christian? Does he(she) still recieve the help from above?
------------------ Okey, okey, here's my question:
If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
posted
Y'know what the other problem is, besides the fact that most people don't "choose" their religion? They also don't tend to know anything about it. I was raised Catholic. Catholic grade school, Catholic high school, mass every Sunday... The whole nine yards. I'm now a freshman in college. It was not until now that I'm taking an ancient history course in a non-religious school, that I've finally been taught the real origins of the religion I was so immersed in. In grade school and high school, we were basically taught what the Bible, at first glance, seems to purport: ou old friend "I Am" has been talking to people since the beginning of time, and the belief in him has been around for as long as you can imagine. How many of you who belong to religons rooted in Judaism (Jews, Christians, Moslems, whatever) are aware that that religion didn't even exist until the time of the Exodus? "Yahweh" was a local god of the Sinai, whose worship the Egyptian Hebrews picked up on their trek between Egypt and Canaan. Back then, there was barely even a hint of monotheism. Ever noticed how, in those early writings, you get things like "your god" and "the god of Abraham", etc.? That's because early Judaism was completely polytheistic. They all believed in the Egyptian gods, the Mesopotamian gods, etc. They thought Yahweh was superior to the others, but they had no doubt that the others were just as real as their own. The only thing that made the early Hebrew religion any different than the Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc. theologies was that they associated their god w/ themselves as a people, rather than associating him w/ a place, like most other cultures did. I was incredibly surprised to learn that Christianity (and the others) evolved from something that started out as nothing different than the other ancient pantheonic religions. Not only was I shocked, but I was apalled that I had spent thirteen years in Catholic schools, and never once had they even touched upon this fact. The religion was presented as being perfectly adherent to modern beliefs as far back as anyone could think. This is the sort of lying and manipulation (and matbe even self-delusion) that I find completely intolerable in religions. Maybe if more people actually knew what is was they were putting their faith in, they wouldn't be so quick to jump to it...
------------------ "Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!" -Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
posted
My name (username) is not Guresh. It is Gurgeh, and when, some day, I get Senior Member Status and my choice of status line, it will read: Gurgeh, The Player of Games.
Sorry, I just had to get that out of the way.
Oh yes, the religion thing. Good point by TSN. By ignoring, or at least skimming over the finitenes of the church's history, the church has aimed to enhance people's perception of it as a long-standing, infallible institution, and, I suppose, have partially succeeded in this.
Blue Electron, I think that you may find the knowledge you seek in my first post in this thread.
------------------ Try not. Do. Or Do not. There is no try.
posted
Well, Christianity did "evolve" from Judaism, no doubt. The Christian covenant was a replacement for the rejected Jewish covenant and Jesus followed Jewish law. And it is true that the Bible records the ancient Hebrews many times fell away as a nation and began worshiping the Gods of the surrounding nations. Like in the book of Judges. You'll notice though, that bad times usually followed. Things like drought and captivity usually resulted from false worship in the midst of Isreal. When the nation's attitude was corrected, they could once again enjoy their special relationship with Yahweh (or YHWH). The difference here is between the worship they were PRACTICING and the worship they were SUPPOSED to be practicing. The "pure" Hebrew religion had only one god. They of course recognized that the God's of the nations were real to the nations that worshiped them, but those god's were not a part of the Hebrew religion.
------------------ "A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Oh, yeah, the Book of Judges. That's the one where the Jews practice human sacrifice. (Well, Jepthah, Judge of Israel, does, but it's mainly because he made a rash promise to God that if God helped him win this battle he was going to fight, he'd sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home as a burnt offering. Well, to make a long story short, he won, and the first thing he saw when he got home was his own dear daughter.) "Thanks, Dad!"
Of course, taking what is written in Judges etc. as factual history, is again dubious. It wasn't written then, after all, but much later. And is in the same tone that the Fundie Loons use to blame hurricanes and earthquakes on the US's 'turning away from God, booga-booga.'
------------------ "Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
posted
I believe Jeptha said he would offer the first person he saw to Jehovah (or God). He certainly didn't offer has a human sacrifice. The text says she went off with her friends for a month to "weep over her virginity". It then says that she never had sex during her life (evidently due to the nature of the service she was performing, I'll have to look it up) and that people would visit her all the time. Nowhere does it say she was given as a human sacrifice.
And I believe that any attempt to use the book of Judges to say that God now causes earthquakes and what not is pure craziness. God had a covanent relationship with the nation of Isreal which they were blatently violating. No such relationship has ever existed with any other physical nation nor does any such relationship currently exist.
00000 Addendum after rereading the Account 00000
My bad. Jephtha does in fact use the term burnt offering. My reason for saying that he didn't intend to actually burn someone alive are these: 1. Child sacrifice was explicitly and specifically condemned by Jewish law in Deuteronomy. Such a vow would never have been acceptable. 2. Jephtha's daughter apparently lived for many years after this account because people would visit her every year to give encouragement. This even thought his daughter went along with the vow and the vow was fulfilled.
The temple service conclusion is not arbitrary. There are other examples (Samuel I think) where parents had the right to devote their children to God's exclusive service in the Temple. This would also account for the fact that she never got married or had sex. This may be viewed by some as another example of "convenient metaphor" but I guess it all comes down to whether you view the Bible as consistant or inconsistant. ------------------ "A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
posted
Fabrux: Christianity is the most targeted because, at least in western countries, it is the most visible and has the largest following. As for Catholics, nearly every Protestant Christian I've ever met who has had little or no direct contact with Catholic Christians have misconceptions and prejudices against Catholicism. Catholicism has almost entirely different rituals from Protestant churches (except Anglican and maybe Episcopal), and some people like to hate others for being different.
The Catholic Church, in some instances, is also liberal on social issues and Bible interpretations compared to the rest of the Christian denominations (although that is not to say that there aren't conservative Catholics), and that, I know for a fact, annoys the heaven out of Protestants. The Catholic Church believes that Creation is "just a story" (words of my religion teacher), and they believe in a non-literal interpretation of the Bible. Gurgeh's theory on Catholics and abortion are rather maliciously incriminating, since all Christians should be against abortion if they believe in the Ten Commandments ("Thou shall not kill"?). In the opinion toward homosexuals, the official message is this: they are not approved of and cannot get married within a Catholic setting because they cannot procreate. On the other hand, some churches have support groups for homosexuals, and that is far more tolerant than you can say for Protestants (another factor that annoys them).
Today's Clarification on Catholicism is brought to you by an agnostic from Ramona Convent Secondary School, a very liberal Catholic all-girls school.
------------------ "One more day before the storm At the barricades of freedom! When our ranks begin to form Will you take your place with me?" --Enjolras, "One Day More," Les Miserables
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited April 18, 2000).]
posted
TZ: Thanks ever so for answering my question. This reminds me a bit of the situation with the high schools of my city - the students of the 3 other high schools in central Saint John are always putting down my school and it is postulated that this is because we offer so many things that those other schools don't.
posted
Judiasm itself was derived from Zorastrianism. You'll note that around the time of (supposedly) the parting of the Red Sea Persia ruled northern Egypt, Ramses III was a vassal. The most common religion of the time was Zorastrianism, as this is what the conquerors took with them. Judiasm and Christianity are much further down the track in the evolutionary timespan.
------------------ "Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
posted
Aban: No, the Hebrews still believed in the existence of the other gods, they just weren't supposed to worship any other than Yahweh. It wasn't until somewhere around the time of David and Solomon and that lot, that they decided that Yahweh was the only god, rather than just being the only one that mattered. This is the problem. People are taught and believe that their monotheism is some sort of eternal constant, and that's why it's "right". And that's not even the only example of this sort of thing. Religions change over time, and yet everyone assumes "this is the way it, so this is the way it's always been, because it's 'right'". I mean, look at Buddhism. It started out w/ a prince who had some neat philosophical ideas. Now, he's a god. How does that work? And of course, if you suggested to a Christian that a similar situation could have caused the deification of Jesus, they think you were nuts. The gospels say Jesus performed miracles that no human could have, so he must have been a god, never mind that the gospels were written well after he was dead by people who wanted to convinve everyone that he was a god. People are quick to find the flaws in all other religions, while simply remaining willfully ignorant of the ones in their own. I hate willful ignorance...
------------------ "Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!" -Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
[This message has been edited by TSN (edited April 21, 2000).]
posted
According to the Gospels and the Epistles, the first century Christians didn't believe Jesus was God. A spirit creature, yes. God, no. The Trinitarian philosphy didn't enter into 'Christian' worship until later.
And I'll be the first to admit that there are things I am ignorant of. But when I have questions, I ask. When I don't understand something, I do research. I simply can't understand why discussions like this must always include insults as well as an exchange of ideas. I have yet to call someone else's beliefs stupid. I totally understand how difficult it is believe in ANYTHING these days.
------------------ "A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
1. Jepthah DID promise a burnt offering, as you admit to above.
2. It also states that when his daughter returned from bewailing her virginity, Jepthah kept his promise. 3. It does NOT say that people went and visited HER later, rather that they went out and bewailed her fate. You ASSUMED she was in the temple, based on your previous erroneous interpretation of Jepthah's promise. So, either he actually did cook her, or the Bible is inaccurate.
------------------ "Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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