Then you have the ways in which you all attempt to justify your viewpoints, all of which are flawed. I'll explain:

Statistical

Statistics can say whatever you like. And they're probably painting an incorrect picture anyway. Consider, how many crimes are reported? How many crimes have the perpetrators identified (whether coorectly or not), how many lead to arrests, to charges, to trial, to conviction, to sentencing, to punishment, to appeal, to rehabilitation? Add to that morass such factors as the race of the victims, the race of the perpetrators, the race (or racial attitudes) of the police. Each separate crime is different if not unique. How do you then lump them together into percentages that say the death penalty is effective or not?

No, much as it's distasteful to admit it, Rob's assertion that "that's one person who won't kill anyone again" is the only sure thing. But suppose they could be successfully rehabilitated? Shouldn't you at least try?

Ethical

If you look below you'll see I'm following up with "Moral" - so, to clarify, by "Ethical" I mean concerns of a religious nature. Again, where do you start? The religious attitudes of the victim, the perpetrator, the lawmaker/law-interpreter? The overall or dominant religion of the State assuming there isn't a clear constitutional separation of such?

To elucidate, I'm an atheist. Why should I care what the Bible says (and also doesn't say, given it contradicts itself so much)?

Moral

There are certain attitudes that could be said to transcend religious concerns. I'd like to think it's from here that law itself springs. But again, morality can be greatly influenced by culture, upbringing, etc. . .

The best example of what I mean here is Liam's statement that no-one should have the right to take the life of another - a statement with which I agree.

***

So. You can debate using one or all of the above argumental jumping-off points. But ultimately it just comes down to your own opinion.

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"It strikes me that there are enough episodes of the Simpsons that people could speak entirely in Simpsonese, using references from the show to explain or describe an endless series of situations. Nelson and Apu . . . at Tinagra.

But now I�ve brought Star Trek into it again, haven�t I. Sorry."

The reason I'm not "bashing" Rob is because Rob's first post in this thread wasn't: You do realize, of course, that JeffK will come here as soon as he gets to the forums next, and turn this into an Omega-bashfest.

I mean, honestly, when he's downright BEGGING people to make it an Omega-bash, what do you expect?

Durned MSIE, doesn't have an "undo" button...

Please, explain to me, why does God not disaprove of the Death Penalty?

I already have, at least twice. But YET again...

The Bible doesn't say, "Thou shalt not kill." The Bible says, "Thou shalt not murder." You're clinging to a very old mistranslation, just like the Catholics do with, "Hail, Mary, full of grace." You'll seem so much bigger if you learn to admit your mistakes, Jeff. If you don't, then you just lose more and more credibility the longer you hold onto a defeated premise.

I actually was going to leave this thread alone, but since Omega threw out the invite

I didn't invite you. I told you to find something productive to do with your time, because we all know what you're going to say already.

Omega's posts here as well as his views on the current slavery discussion have led me to conclude he's a racist, although I don't think he realizes it yet.

*L*

Then you have an odd definition of "racism". You CAN NOT be racist and not know it. That's like saying there can be racism without racist people. It's stupid.

Have I said anything about black people, as a generality? Have I indicated in any way that I give a darn about race? No. I am therefore not racist, no matter what you may think. To quote Da'an, "You may wish to find me guilty, but I have commited no crime."

I point out that this is straight out of liberalism's playbook: race card. Very unoriginal. Next should be some sort of class warfare.

QW:

I play no favourites.

Glad to hear it. You, sir, are one of the more rational liberals I know, and I salute you for it.

*scrolls down*

...

DT? Is that you? I thought you said that we were messing up your karma, or something? Finally ditch the Hindu thing, did we? So how ya doin'? Still spewing your irrational blather, I see.

Omega is both a homophobe and a racist

You base this on what?

That is why I support the death penalty, to put garbage like Omega out of their pitiful existence.

Yeah, and you supported private gun ownership for the express purpose of overthrowing the government and replacing it with communism. It's all about you, isn't it? Whatever bugs you. What about how the rest of us feel?

Keep in mind, this is the same man who once said that blacks are poor because they're lazy and stupid.

You got a quote on that? I'd defend myself, but the attack is so general it'd be pointless. For all I know, you're making something up.

didn't Omega also once defend the Rodney King beating?

No, I defended the fact that the officers involved were found not to be guilty of trying to kill him. The beating itself was inexcusable, understandable though it was (if you know the facts of the case, of course). The prosecutor just got greedy.

America still executes the mentally ill and those under the age of 18

Never heard that one. Example?

Life without parole is not that bad an alternative.

Except for costs, possibility of escape, the fact that NO ONE doesn't get parole anymore, etc.

I'm with the rest of the group, though. You're just not up to your usual standards of irrationality. Maybe you just poked your head in, and found a kindred spirit in JK?

I'm just curious, doesn't USSR have a way better crime rate then Russia nowaday??

Probably. Terror is an effective way of reducing the crime rate. But then, the USSR imprisoned how many thousand innocent people? And killed how many million?

Tom:

Oh, you want me to try legislate my religious beliefs, then, do you? Well, OK, sure, that means you have to love everyone, and devote your life to God, by law. And you can't get abortions, by law. And you can't have pre-marital sex, by law. Sound good to you?

Liam:

Thank you for attempting to return some sanity to this discussion.

Fo2:

Mayhaps that's because I tend to take a more reasoned balance. Or I argue better.

Well, gee, thanks, Rob. What am I? Chopped liver?

Lee:

Why should I care what the Bible says (and also doesn't say, given it contradicts itself so much)

I'm starting a new thread, just because you ticked me off with that comment, and I don't feel like getting this one off topic. I'm getting tired of people saying the Bible contradicts itself, without having the evidence to back that up. Put up or shut up, you guys.

George W. Bush is no stranger to the executions of mentally-ill people. I do believe he got in a bit of a scandal over the execution of Georgia Faye Tucker, correct?

You've still yet to prove to me why God approves of the Death Penalty. You once said that you considered the DP immoral, Omega, but you accepted it because it was, in your opinion, the only viable option. Therefore, it stands to reason that God finds it immoral, as well. If He didn't find it immoral, why would you? You've changed your mind -- you don't view it as immoral anymore, but has God changed His?

Omega, I hate to break it to you, but when you throw down the challenge in your first post, it's clear you want us to come and make fun of you so you can start crying and whining about how unfair life is. *shrug* You know, news-flash here, but YOU turned it into an Omega-bash thread. Not me.

Yeah. I wonder why I would think you're racist. First, you try and justify the owning of slaves. In this country (and, since we're both in the US, and were talking about Tom Jefferson), slavery is a very racist institution. You don't see a lot of white slaves. Now, this might just be me, but slavery = racist. Those who defend slavery, = racists. I'm sure you're in denial about that, but, hey, that's life.

The_Tom is inquiring how, if you're such a religious person, you can support laws that your religion doesn't. Maybe you go to church every Sunday, but if you go out supporting laws that He doesn't like, I don't think your church attendence is going to help you much at the end of your life.

No, you're not chopped liver. But you sure do make yourself look like it with some of your comments.

Yes you can. Best Example, my mom. She holds EXTREME stereotypical views about all cultures and thinks that the Chinese Culture is the best and the ideal. Yet she claims she's not racist. Go figure.

So I shot that argument down. Defense anyone?

Fo2: Mayhaps that's because I tend to take a more reasoned balance. Or I argue better. Or maybe I'm just right.

Reasoned Balance. Don't you think it's why a good portion of the people here agree with your views?

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"In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night."
- Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM

Omega, i'm NOT a liberal. True, there are some issues that I tend to be more liberal with, such as gay rights, etc. But there are some that I can be quite conservative on, such as the death penalty, abortion, what have you. I think I see myself as more libertarian than anything else. But overall, I really don't identify with ANY political group. There are some Democrats I do like and there are some Republicans that I like as well. It's all a matter of finding some kind of balance that works for me.

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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"

-Nimrod 16/4/2001

slavery = racist. Those who defend slavery, = racists

You are incapable of thought.

There, now that that's out of the way, let me address the sentient beings here. The defense of slavery is wrong. The defense of THE OWNERSHIP OF SLAVES, done in such a manner that it did not perpetuate slavery, and in fact helped to end it, is a completely different concept.

The_Tom is inquiring how, if you're such a religious person, you can support laws that your religion doesn't.

And I answered him.

QW:

True, there are some issues that I tend to be more liberal with, such as gay rights, etc. But there are some that I can be quite conservative on, such as the death penalty, abortion

Those aren't conservative or liberal issues. Yeah, one position or the other might be held by one side or the other IN GENERAL, but it's not by definition. How do you feel about the size of government?

(I read this in "Ebony," so it must be at least partially true...)

Slavery as an institution is not racist. People of all colors and nationalities, at one time or another have participated against the slave trade, usually trafficking in their own race and people.

The first blacks to arrive on the shores of the United States were free men, not slaves.
In the US, slavery was not inherently racist. It was far more a matter of business and convenience. It was easier to send a ship to Africa, purchase some slaves from the local slavers (who were themselves black africans) and ship them back to the US then it was to convince people to become indentured servants and work for their passage.

However, slavery became part of a self-perpetuating racist ideology, at least partly because of the poor quality of educational opportunities for freed OR captive blacks, (It's harder to teach an adult to read than a child, it's harder to teach a free adult ex-slave than it is a child in either condition), and perhaps by the religious beliefs of some southerners (There's some passage in the story about Noah about dark-skinned people being meant to be servants because Ham messed up or some rot.) Also, probably some of the more infant sciences of the time (genetics, sociology, etc.) contributed to the image of blacks being less civilized and thusly less civilize-ABLE.

All in all, I think the size of guv'ment should reflect what is neccesary for it's citizens, no more, no less. And seeing how we have a country of 260 million + people, well, for the most part I think the current size is allright. Though it could use a bit of a nip and tuck here and there.

There's some passage in the story about Noah about dark-skinned people being meant to be servants because Ham messed up or some rot

Ah, yes, Canaan, Ham's son. He was cursed because Noah couldn't bring himself to curse his own son. Now whether God carrys through on Noah's curses, I don't know.

But we digress.

Unfortunately, I cannot be the same old DT. I have been tempered by my time in the pen - err, I mean, hell yeah, jail! (not really, but I can't divulge where I've been lately). And if you're wondering, I'm back by popular demand (one person, okay, but still....)

JR: It is hard to tell which parts are satirical and which ones you actually mean. I agree with Ultra Magnus... You came back...for that?
Well, you see, I just wanted a nice part to enter back in on, and attacking Omega is always fun. That's what I missed most about Flare. I'd try to find people who are as idiotic, but, I go to college, it's tough! And I don't live in the deep south!

Liam: You know, it's interesting how people arguing against the Death Penalty are going for Omega. There are lots of other people who agree with it, you know. Yet no-one wants to argue with First of Two. Hmm.
Again, that's because I hate Omega with the fire of a thousand suns. That little Anton Drexler must be stamped out immediately.

Now, to reply to my buddy Omega's comments.

"DT? Is that you? I thought you said that we were messing up your karma, or something? Finally ditch the Hindu thing, did we? So how ya doin'? Still spewing your irrational blather, I see."
Yes, it is me! Or, rather, I. And I realize my karma is improved by ridding the world of a young A.S. Chamberlain.

"'Omega is both a homophobe and a racist' You base this on what?"
I know you. You can be a racist without admitting it, it's called the blind spot. See, unlike you, I've met black people and they notice these things, being black and all. And come on, do you really have no problem with homosexuality?

"Yeah, and you supported private gun ownership for the express purpose of overthrowing the government and replacing it with communism. It's all about you, isn't it? Whatever bugs you. What about how the rest of us feel?"
I'm very selfish.

"You got a quote on that?"
I think it is still on the FMMP Forums.

"Never heard that one. Example?"
Execution of the mentally ill is well documented, remember the 1992 elections? Wait, you were 6, you wouldn't. And I did mean for crimes committed under 18. US also executes citizens of other countries, which is pretty exceptional. Consider than Eammon De Valera lived simply because he was an American citizen. Britain was already more civilized 85 years ago.

"Except for costs, possibility of escape, the fact that NO ONE doesn't get parole anymore, etc."
Crap! Charlie Manson is out! Oh no! Wait... could it be that he got life with possibility of parole and just isn't released? Maybe... and if life without parole is such an impossible alternative, why does every civilized country in the world have it?

"I'm with the rest of the group, though. You're just not up to your usual standards of irrationality. Maybe you just poked your head in, and found a kindred spirit in JK?"
JK?
And I am sorry, I will try to be more irrational but... it's hard competing with you.

BTW, if the definition of conservative/liberal is size of government, wouldn't that make you a liberal? See, I feel that giving the government the power to take the lives of its own citizens is too much power in the hand of government. I guess a liberal like you would disagree.

And for the record, I am NOT a liberal. I curse anyone who dare insinuate that! I am a communist! I am NOT A LIBERAL!

Thank you

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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine