posted
Oh, and to clarify, the Arabs didn't clear the Jews out of Palestine. It was those charming Italian types with the Gladiators and aqueducts and the whole bit. Who were they again?
The Arab peoples moved in as the aforementioned guys' empire began to collapse. They were there for a good 1700 years before Jews began to stream back once the British took control following WWI, and that entire holocaust thing sort of increased the flow.
But in the case of what Sharon is doing, I'm not sure if history is anyway relevant to the fact he's shooting the wrong people and ignoring saner minds.
------------------ "And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking." -DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
posted
Fact: Palestinians started out this non-sense.
Fact: Isrealies have already done a lot over the past decade to smooth the relationship with the Palestinian, which includes giving up almost half of Isreal's land-mass.
Fact: Yasser Arafat did nothing to stop the garilla attacks from his side but talking, while he could have done something far more productive.
Fact: All "stratigic" attacks by Isreal(bombing from the air, etc) are carry out at "military" targets instead of "civilian" targets.
Fact: Palestinians on other hands are trying to imposing terrors by carry out garrila attacks targeting civilians.
So, what can you conclude from previous statements.
Personally, I have no sympathy towards the Palestinians, they're dumb, ignorant, I mean, what kind of people throw rocks at military officers with machine guns when their country is at the brink of war?
I think the Isrealies are already showing great restrain on their part, and if the Palestinians keep this up, one day they're gonna seriously piss the Isrealies off, and this won't be limited warfare that much longer.
And Why should the Isrealies gave in, I mean, these are rebels and terrorists sanction by the Palestinians, and we all know any government in the right mind should not give in to the demands of terrorists.
------------------ What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend? - With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
[This message has been edited by BlueElectron (edited May 21, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by BlueElectron (edited May 21, 2001).]
posted
You know, if the Palestinians were black, there would be all kinds of wonderful tie-ins with South Africa that one could make. But they are not and so the world watches.
And we get to see rocks met with tank fire.
I not advocating for either side. But Isreal, who feels it in their national interest to retaliate at every provocation, needs to move to an appropriate level of force or the world is going to see one bloody awful mess as the whole situation escalates.
------------------ I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery! ~ C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited May 21, 2001).]
quote:Fact: Palestinians started out this non-sense.
Well, I don't think the Mitchell report agreed with you. You forget the first rule of combat: It takes two to tango. By avoiding a diplomatic solution as soon as this began to brew and instead using the military, the Israelis must bear some of the blame.
quote:Fact: Isrealies have already done a lot over the past decade to smooth the relationship with the Palestinian, which includes giving up almost half of Isreal's land-mass.
No they haven't. They've ceded the Gaza Strip and a handful of towns in the West Bank to the Palestinean Authority. The Israeli's won't let the region become an independent state. And right now Israeli tanks are charging through said areas.
quote:Fact: Yasser Arafat did nothing to stop the garilla attacks from his side but talking, while he could have done something far more productive.
Like what, ordering Palestineans everywhere to hunt down people among them who believed in a more militant stance against Israel? As the bombed prison incident shows, his Palestinean police have indeed arrested some of their own terrorists. Arafat can no more control the terrorist groups than the Irish Taoiseach can control the "Real" IRA.
quote:Fact: All "stratigic" attacks by Isreal(bombing from the air, etc) are carry out at "military" targets instead of "civilian" targets.
Check your facts. He's shot at houses where former terrorists who laid down their arms with the Oslo Accord live with their families. He's bombed government offices where Palestinean civil servants work. He blew up said prison, killing innocent guards. He's attacked Palestinean Police posts. If the US invaded Canada, would you consider RCMP stations "military targets?"
quote:Fact: Palestinians on other hands are trying to imposing terrors by carry out garrila attacks targeting civilians.
Fact: The Israeli army routinely shells Palestinean villages.
I recommend you look up: War, Total.
quote:Personally, I have no sympathy towards the Palestinians, they're dumb, ignorant, I mean, what kind of people throw rocks at military officers with machine guns when their country is at the brink of war?
Personally, I think statements like that are racist and poorly thought out.
quote: if the Palestinians keep this up, one day they're gonna seriously piss the Isrealies off, and this won't be limited warfare that much longer.
Since when are F-16's limited warfare?
quote:And Why should the Isrealies gave in, I mean, these are rebels and terrorists sanction by the Palestinians, and we all know any government in the right mind should not give in to the demands of terrorists.
The Palestinean Authority isn't sanctioning the acts of Hamas, Hizbollah etc. etc. Terrorists can't be beaten by all the fighter jets in the world, so instead Israel targets the legitimate government of an oppressed people.
And if governments shouldn't give in to terrorists, I think we must roundly condemn the British for ever letting that George Washington fellow lead the well-off people of the 13 colonies out from under the rule of Great Britain.
------------------ "And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking." -DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited May 21, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited May 21, 2001).]
posted
To be honest Blue, I can't really think that anything the Palestineans have done would be anything more than a gnat bite compared to the hammer and anvil approach by Sharon. Yes, they use what would be considered terrorist activities, but I dare that that in a "Red Dawn"-esk situation, invaded Americans might very well do the same thing.
What I am saying is that while I decry the use of force (personally I think that civil disobedience on a grand scale might achieve some goals), what force has been used by the Palestineans has been met with an inappropriate amount of force in reaction.
I seem to recall a story were a couple of morter shells landed in the middle of nowhere but near an Isreali settlement, and the reaction was helicopter gunships blasting away in a populated area.
I can't say that I hold much sympathy with Isreal and it's separatist policy. It's oppression and segregation pure and simple. At its heart lies a political, ecomonic, cultural, and historical barrier to inclusion Palestineans.
------------------ I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery! ~ C. Montgomery Burns
posted
" Well, I don't think the Mitchell report agreed with you. You forget the first rule of combat: It takes two to tango. By avoiding a diplomatic solution as soon as this began to brew and instead using the military, the Israelis must bear some of the blame. "
This is true only to a certain extend. Fact is, Palestainins started the fight, they should take most of the blame.
" No they haven't. They've ceded the Gaza Strip and a handful of towns in the West Bank to the Palestinean Authority. The Israeli's won't let the region become an independent state. And right now Israeli tanks are charging through said areas. "
I believe the common goals between the Isrealies and Palestainins are to eventually establish a independent state, maybe not now, but in the future. The process is not gonna happen over night, this show that the Isrealies are committed to resolve their difference with peaceful cooperation, but what did the Palestainins do? They started a fight!
" Like what, ordering Palestineans everywhere to hunt down people among them who believed in a more militant stance against Israel? As the bombed prison incident shows, his Palestinean police have indeed arrested some of their own terrorists. Arafat can no more control the terrorist groups than the Irish Taoiseach can control the "Real" IRA. "
Ordering Palestineans to hunt down terrorists? What does that do? He knows his people hated the Isrealies, his speech serves nothing but to look good internationally, to show that he's doing something to preserve peace, when he's actually doing FUBAR! Random gun fights broke out everyday, and just how many so called terrorist did his officials caught? Again, FUBAR! He could declare some sort of emergency, which probably do good for both Isrealies and Palestineans, but do you see more police man or military officers patroling the street more then usual? NO! Do you see Palestineans officers stop their youth from throwing rocks at Isrealies soldiers? NO! Did you see Palestieans officers cooperating and fighting alongside Isrealies against snipers and violents? No, it's all FUBAR, and I thought they want to cooperate? And why shouldn't Isrealies hold Arifat responsible? This is similiar to an international conflict because Palestineans are somewhat indepentent, and when my citizen got killed by terrorist from your country, I don't deal with the terroirst, I deal with the HEAD OF STATE, in this case, Arifat!
" Check your facts. He's shot at houses where former terrorists who laid down their arms with the Oslo Accord live with their families. He's bombed government offices where Palestinean civil servants work. He blew up said prison, killing innocent guards. He's attacked Palestinean Police posts. If the US invaded Canada, would you consider RCMP stations "military targets? "
I do believe most of the targets are thought to be terroists hide-outs, or base where terroists or "militia warloads" resides. And you're right, maybe some of it is retaliations, but at least they pick on target of which they believe to be military value and not civilian value. And yes, Palestinean police post are consider para-military, just like the "Red Guard" of China, they carry out the duties of police matters, but they're also somewhat military in nature.
" Fact: The Israeli army routinely shells Palestinean villages.
I recommend you look up: War, Total. "
Mind I remind you villages with reported sniper fires, and mortar fires? And I don't think they "level" entire village with military fire without cause. They either forcefully evacuate villagers, or fire on specific target buildings. Is there misfire? yes. Are innocent people hurt in the process? Some. But like I said before, Isrealies did try to avoid civilian deaths are much as possible, the rest is inevitable casuality of war, which believe it or not, do happen in warfare. And if you need to be morally justified in EVERY SINGLE DEATHS and EVERYSINGLE ACTIONS in war, then I hope that you never get to command an army that defends our countries.
" Personally, I think statements like that are racist and poorly thought out. "
They are STUPID and IGNORANT. Are they carrying out PEACEFUL demonstrations? NO! Is the country in a very stable, peaceful state? NO! Have people been killed during these violent protess? YES!
They have TV, they watch news, they read newspaper they know people are dieing, and yet they can't figure out that it's dangerous to throw rock at Isrealies offiers at a time like this?
Palestaineans ARE STUPID to provoke officers with GUNS. Palesaineans are IGNORANT for letting their families go out and protess. Is it wrong to shoot people, yes normally, in this case maybe, but f**king bitch about it at home, write letters to U.N. , get interview by CNN and bitch some more! But throw rocks at unhappy people with guns?
I am sad at lost of lives here, but I have no sympathy for stupid actions, and therefore no sympathy for Palestineans who got killed in protess. If that is racisim, then so be it!
" Since when are F-16's limited warfare? "
A bomb flight consist of less then 5 fighters(do correct me if I'm wrong about the number) with precision strike at an intended target, with limited damange to it's surroundings. If you call that full-out war, then believe what you want to believe, I'm not going to waste my breath explaining the difference between full-war, and limited-war.
" The Palestinean Authority isn't sanctioning the acts of Hamas, Mizbollah etc. etc. Terrorists can't be beaten by all the fighter jets in the world, so instead they target a legitimate government for an oppressed people. "
Welcome to reality pal, like I said before, countries deal with HEAD OF STATE, or LEGIT GOVERNMENT BODY, they don't deal with individual. Responsiblities of individual is not first prioity, rather who's responsible for this individuals is the one they question.
------------------ What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend? - With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
[This message has been edited by BlueElectron (edited May 21, 2001).]
He's actually doing "Fucked up beyond any recognition"??? Is that a play?
Israel has admitted long before that they have neither the manpower nor the stamina to engage in a prolonged war, so I sincerely hope they'll be able to take some steam off some other way. They don't want Jom Kippur again. (Or maybe they do?! Hmm...)
But I suspect the soil of Israel will be fought over long after we are dust.
------------------ "Babies haven't any hair; old men's heads are just as bare; between the cradle and the grave lies a haircut and a shave."
posted
It's interesting Jay drew parallels with South Africa: after all, Israel and SA did participate in a joint nuclear weapons programme, and also share a common assault rifle (the Israeli Galil; don't know what it's called in SA, unsure whether it was jointly developed or one built it and the other bought it).
posted
The Jews of Israel are a scarred people. They have been selected for persecution for thousands of years. They have seen people and communities destroyed. Every night, before going to bed, the Jews would pray to see Jerusalem next year.
That next year was 1948. Nations of the world presented Israel with a guilt offering. They said, "We permitted by our silence for your people to be slaughtered in Europe. This is our repentence-a nation for your people."
The effect of thousands of angry and demoralized people entering Palestine was devastating. Communities of Palestinians were displaced. Islamic nations were furious. The day of Israel's birth is known by the Palestinians as the Day of Catastrophe.
Palestinians attempted to enter Islamic nations, and in many countries were denied permission. Yet, in the wars between Israel and Islamic nations, the Palestinians aided the non-Israelites.
So, there are two major groups.
Jews-A ravaged, marginal civilization dating to the Davidic Dynasty, ca. 1000 BCE. Israel is their hope and dream. In Israel, Jews have survival.
Palestinians-A displaced, angry, and emotional civilization that has roots that date back centuries. They see Israel as Palestine. In Palestine, they can create an Islamic nation. And in Palestine, they can have a home that was not a refuge camp.
These two civilizations are tied to the land and to their interpretations of history.
I don't see peace coming soon. For as long as both civilizations feel victimized by the other and by selected nations, the violence will continue. They are two wounded animals in the same cage tearing at each other's flesh. The Jews are stronger for now. Yet, the Jews will succumb eventually to tearing themselves apart. In the Talmud, there is an euphemism. This is, "The enemies of the Jews". This refers to the Jews themselves. They are their own worst enemy. When Jews succumb to their internal fights, their nation will be torn from them.
posted
What I find quite interesting is that the really militant Jews don't even want Israel to exist. They believe that Israel can only exist again when the Messiah comes.
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