That's funny. I said the same thing back in March to you on ICQ: Me: Love is the universal constant that links everyone and everything. And hell will be the day I stop believing it.
Omega: I wasn't aware that Hell was a point in time.
Me: Then perhaps you aren't aware that hell is a state of mind. : )
Omega: In your beliefs.
Of course, that love bit was forsaken in favor of the hell argument. How ironic.
"Yeah, it's cliche, but it's as simple as it gets. God loves you, and He's going to incredible amounts of trouble to make you happy. And yet you fight Him. You CAN NOT LIVE away from God. You, right now, are without God, and if you die without God, THEN you're screwed."
Let's see, God loves you unconditionally, right? So why do you need to be Christian? Isn't that a condition? If you can not (not able to) live away from him, how is it that us heathens are living? And if I remember, isn't God within each of us? If so, how's it possible to live without God to begin with?
Frankly, I find it irritating that you talk about love with no love at all. I did it in that ICQ conversation, but not since I've realized what I did.
Jeff: I've noticed a common theme in religious debates. All religions have multiple facets; God = love is one. You'd have to factor in other circumstances (depending on your beliefs), such as free will or fate (which are compatible, btw), otherwise you're just simplifying the argument for brief satisfaction. But since Omega does the same thing to other people, I don't see why you need to stop.
Oh man, I just had a mental image of Arnold Schwartzenagger as Jesus.
"Simple: You're not."
By your definition, anyway.
"No, that's not stated anywhere in scripture. God can't be in you, for you live in sin."
Perhaps it's not stated, but at least that's what I remember from Catholicism and maybe Protestant also, I'm not sure.
"I love all of you."
Fine way of showing it. I suppose you yell and call your mother an idiot all the time, too.
"Why do you think I keep beating my head on a brick wall, just to get you all to see it all as clearly as I do?"
Simple. WE ARE NOT YOU. If you argue without assuming we think exactly the way you do, you might find yourself with some new understanding. I recommend The Art of Speedreading People by Paul & Barbara Tieger for starters. Or email me for a quick overview on personality differences.
To quote that book, it's not "treat others as you would like to be treated", it's "treat others as THEY would like to be treated." Does anybody else see a common link in all the debates? If I thought everybody else think as I do, and if I clearly see that conservatism is completely good, then it follows that whoever argues the opposite must be completely wrong, right? And if I believe something so much that I take it as simple fact, yet others deny it as fraud, it must be the devil's influence, right? I've made my point, even if you don't see it, Omega.
"In fact, along those same lines, religion has corrupted the idea of doing good deeds. I've heard people say that, if it weren't for fear of a god, they wouldn't give a shit about anyone else. The only thing shaping their morality is their religion."
Different religions exist for the benefit of people at differet stages of spirituality. There are religions out there whose gods are NOT to be feared, so why not those? It's their choice, isn't it? On the other hand, I was raised with no religious background whatsoever until age 12 (after that I entered Catholic school), yet I always give a shit about other people (not literally). Don't ignore the other side of the equation.
posted
Diane: I didn't say everyone was like that. After all, I'm not, and I was raised Catholic. But a lot of people are.
Omega: First off, I spelled it "Jebus" on purpose. It's a reference to The Simpsons. Also, as I've pointed out, "Jesus" isn't even close to his real name, either, so "Jebus" is no less valid. And it sounds funnier. :-)
"Ah, ah, SOME people don't want him to be king. Some do. Some don't believe that they even have a king to begin with. But either way, He's GOING to be King, by birthright. Deal with it."
But, if some people don't want him to be their king, he shouldn't be. If people don't like their system of government, they change it. Are you saying the US Revolution should never have happened? The colonials should simply have accepted the fact that George III was their king, and lived w/ it? If George had simply said "execute anyone who doesn't want me to be in charge", and it had happened, would you uphold his actions as "right"?
"Hang on, weren't you all complaining a while back about how God should say, "Screw free will, I'm stopping this [insert undesirable action]?" Make up your minds, would you?"
I don't think I ever said that.
"If you can not (not able to) live away from him, how is it that us heathens are living?
"Simple: You're not."
Well, if we're not alive, why are you trying to convert us? We must be either figments of your imagination, or some sort of robots. So, what good does it do?
posted
I just thought about something. Back in the Protestant church, I think I heard a few accounts of how some people thought they sinned really awfully and didn't want to convert to Christianity because they thought they'd be punished. I was thinking how ironic that the first half of the Bible turns away those whom the second half embraces. And then it hit me--
Has anyone played the game Black & White? It came out a few months ago for the PC. It's basically a god game where you train a Creature (sort of a henchman) to help you do your job, which is to keep your followers happy and try to convert villages away from other gods. Now, you can either be a benevolent god or an evil god; you'll get belief points for either one. One of the strategies is raining hellfire and lightning bolts on the villages, setting houses on fire, then sending in your Creature to dowse the fires, cast healing and food miracles when they most need it.
I'm tempted to start a new game and call myself God and my Creature Jesus, but I really don't want to go through the quest with the singing ark-builders again.
Anyone who wants to play this game, be forewarned. If you can train your Creature well, that's great. Otherwise be prepared for a lot of frustrating micro-management and multitasking. The game has great reviews, but those are sometimes misleading.
Perhaps it's not stated, but at least that's what I remember from Catholicism and maybe Protestant also, I'm not sure.
Well, you sorta got it right, but you don't have a grasp of the whole. God lives in US, through the Holy Spirit. He doesn't live in you. He'd LIKE to, but, hey, that's your call.
I suppose you yell and call your mother an idiot all the time, too.
No, but sometimes I'd like to. Besides, how many people here have I called idiots? Three? Maybe? And you can't deny that those three were acting like them at the time.
If I thought everybody else think as I do, and if I clearly see that conservatism is completely good, then it follows that whoever argues the opposite must be completely wrong, right?
No, no, it would follow from THAT that whoever argues with me would not be capable of using (or willing to use) their natural, God-given thought processes.
And if I believe something so much that I take it as simple fact, yet others deny it as fraud, it must be the devil's influence, right?
You think this is a common link between all the debates? Then you're a very silly person, Ziyal, 'cause that ain't got nothin' to do with me.
Tim:
I spelled it "Jebus" on purpose. It's a reference to The Simpsons. Also, as I've pointed out, "Jesus" isn't even close to his real name, either, so "Jebus" is no less valid. And it sounds funnier.
Fair enough.
But, if some people don't want him to be their king, he shouldn't be.
You're applying human rules to God. That generally doesn't work out too well. Jesus WILL be King, because it's His right to be. He's inherited the kingdom from His Father. If you don't want to live with Him, then believe me, you won't. But still, I wonder. Would you rather live for all time under the dictatorship of an omniscient, all-loving being who would do anything for you? Or would you rather die eternally? 'Cause those are your choices.
I don't think I ever said that.
Perhaps you should have objected when Rob did, then?
Well, if we're not alive, why are you trying to convert us?
Because you can be MADE alive. God's nifty like that. "Born again" is the exact phrase. As far as God was concerned, you died the moment you first sinned. So did I. But you can be reborn, as I was, and begin anew.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
"Here, here's my oll-gotten gains, go put it in a bank somewhere so I can make even more money off of it, coz I'm greedy like that. Then, death to all who oppose me!"
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
posted
Here, here's my oll-gotten gains, go put it in a bank somewhere so I can make even more money off of it, coz I'm greedy like that. Then, death to all who oppose me!
A) Ill-gotten? Where'd you get that? Heck, that sounds like something a Democrat might say, Rob. Anyone who's wealthy MUST have cheated to get it.
B) You still don't get that the returns are the eternal souls of people like you? God doesn't want riches, He wants YOU, and He's going to incredible trouble to get you. You want to know why? Because He LOVES YOU, and otherwise, you die.
C) Death to those who caused all the dying in the first place, you mean? Like, oh, Satan?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
No matter how you look at it, God's love IS conditional. It's conditional upon your loving and following him BACK.
That's not overwhelming love. That's not even toughlove. It's not as pure as a good mother's love for her children, which goes on even if the children desert her and never speak to her. It's not as pure as the love I feel for my best female friend, who I would go on the Orpheus Quest for even though I know she'll never have any romantic interest in me.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Love me or Go to Hell" isn't love, it's stalkerlove.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
That would be because you took it out of context. Let me make it as plain as possible
A) God loves you.
B) Without God, you die.
C) Thus, God wants you to be with him.
No matter how you look at it, God's love IS conditional. It's conditional upon your loving and following him BACK.
No, it's not. God's HELP is conditional. God my be omnipotent, but even omnipotence has its limits. God can't defy logic ("I am lying", make a rock so big He can't lift it, etc.), nor can He defy His basic nature. God can not be in the presence of sin. God WANTS to help you. He's moved heaven and earth to help you. But He can't do everything. Take one little step. God's already done the rest.
Premise 1: You don't want to die.
Premise 2: Without God, you die.
Premise 3: With sin, you can't be with God.
Conclusion: Be rid of your sin, and thus live with God for eternity.
"Love me or Go to Hell" isn't love, it's stalkerlove.
Only if God's the one forcing the choice on you. You put yourself into the position of being damned. God's showing you the only way that He can help you out of it. Think outside the box. You think that God SENDS people to hell. Rob, you're ALREADY going to hell. God's trying to stop you.
You're trapped in a fissure in an ice field. You have no food, you have no water. You will die. There's a man up on the surface that has done incredible things just to reach you, and to lower a rope down to you. Take the rope, Rob.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
posted
"God my be omnipotent, but even omnipotence has its limits."
Erm, huh? Surely, by definition, omnipotence HAS no limits. That's why it's called omnipotence, and not almost-omnipotence.
There is the idea that a few Christians subscribe to, in that God, having set up the laws of the universe, tries not to break them. He didn't create the Earth in six days, but he set up how planets form, and all that, so that the Earth would end up forming. yeah, it's more long-term, but he's god. I'm sure he has plently of time on his hands.
Still, I remember being taught, like Tora, that God is in each of us. And that his love IS unconditional. In an actual Unconditional type of way. He'd like you to worship him, and all, but it's not necessary.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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