We do, when it comes up.

or opposing it

What, the crusades are still going on?

or taking steps and making sure that such things could never happen again (by, for instance, making the wall of separation of Church and State HIGHER and STRONGER.)

Now Rob, that's just paranoia. Christians would never do anything like that, 'cause it's against our beliefs. Plain and simple.

I mean, if I was an advocate of "Bob-ism," and I went around seeing other Bobists doing things that I KNEW were wrong in the name of Bob, I'd be REALLY pissed off, and most certainly take up whatever was necessary to oppose them.

You know what, Rob? You're absolutely right. Next time I see Toquemada, I'll tell him to back off 'cause he's givin' us all a bad rap.

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

You should be BRINGING it up.

"What, the crusades are still going on?"

In the minds of the Fundies in whose county I live, there are. And if you ask LaHaye or Roberson or that guy north of here who burned the Harry Potter books, they are.

"Now Rob, that's just paranoia. Christians would never do anything like that, 'cause it's against our beliefs. Plain and simple."

Excepting, of course, the aforementioned atrocities. I say if you're capable of doing something once, you're capable of doing it again. I'm not willing to take the chance, given how many of you have obviously NOT learned from history.

"Next time I see Toquemada, I'll tell him to back off 'cause he's givin' us all a bad rap."

Better than Torquemada, you could go ruin a few televangelists' days.

And stop tacitly supporting those doctor-shooters.

Then there was the woman who was denied joint custody of her child because she was Wiccan.

And that idiot FL Senator.

OK, from now on, everywhere I go, I'll say, "I'm a Christian, and I'm sorry for the Inquisition." Sound good?

Hey, why not apply this to the Germans, too? "I'm a German, and I'm sorry for causing tens of millions of deaths." Or, heck, Daryus, you're a communist, aren't you? Why don't you go around apologizing for the, what, hundred million people that have been killed by communist regimes?

Your logic taken to its conclusion leads to patently rediculous things. That's always a good indicator that your logic is flawed.

Better than Torquemada, you could go ruin a few televangelists' days.

If I ever run into one, I may do that.

I say if you're capable of doing something once, you're capable of doing it again.

Yes, but I didn't do it, nor did any other Christian. It was a bunch of ignorant people under the influence of one evil or stupid person. If the Nazis had called themselves Democrats, would you be going around saying that the Democratic party is dangerous because they caused WW2? Your entire argument is based on the premise that my beliefs are somehow related to those of the Crusaders or Inquisitors. This premise is false. Their ONLY belief was that the Pope was the messenger of God. It all stemmed from that.

And stop tacitly supporting those doctor-shooters.

What in the name of John Diefenbaker are you talking about, here?

Then there was the woman who was denied joint custody of her child because she was Wiccan.

I am not familiar with this case.

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

If today's Democrats held the same basic beliefs as the "Nazi" Democrats, you're damned right I would.

(On an unrelated note, however, while having nothing to do with Nazis, today's Democrats hold many of the same basic beliefs as the Communists, and are thusly STILL dangerous.)

>"Their ONLY belief was that the Pope was the messenger of God."

This is either a MASSIVE oversimplification, or an out-and-out lie, I'm not sure which. The Crusaders were Christians. Moreover, like you, they claimed to be the "REAL" Christians, unlike those heathen Greek Orthodoxers, and the "REAL" followers of God, unlike the Jews and Mohammedans. They worshippped God, they went to church, they followed the instructions church elders, their 'superiors,' and all that other rot. All those basic beliefs are still part of Christianity. Therefore the danger remains, and always shall. If their superiors led them astray, that just shows the danger of listening to people who claim to be speaking for God. (Which every preacher/minister/rabbi/prophet/televangelist/charismatic/evangelistic/witness does.)

There's actually an interesting debate on that: http://www.refuseandresist.org/resist_this/021899stoning.html
and http://www.chalcedon.edu/report/99jan/einw_stoning.html
I'll reserve the right to make a comment later
In any case...now that we've established how vehemently you're against abortion, we could rewrite the opening article like this.

" ANYCITY, United States (AP) - A fetus was executed after a mother ordered that it be destroyed for acting in pornographic movies...oops...we mean absolutely nothing, a newspaper reported Monday.

The baby, "<1", was partially buried in a hole at Anycity's medical waste pile and died Sunday after its conviction was upheld by the Supreme Court, the daily Entekhab said.

Police arrested the fetus eight years ago on charges of acting in a lack of "obscene sex films" and after it has done nothing at all...whatsoever.

The fetus, who was not identified, denied committing any crime, but evidence and testimony by witnesses led judiciary officials to issue the abortion sentence, the daily said.

The paper gave no further details. Judiciary officials were not available for comment Monday.

Abortion is a rare punishment in the United States, where babies and children are usually condemned to death due to boredom by a long and tedious speech by President Bush. "

Get the gist? You might dismiss the Taleban as being needlessly cruel, but they could dismiss the US as being exactly the same.

------------------
"The Guide says that there is an art to flying...or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Life, the Universe and Everything

The birth of Karl Marx. His half-baked philosophy has been responsible for more deaths than every war this century combined.

Fo2:

"If the Nazis had called themselves Democrats, would you be going around saying that the Democratic party is dangerous because they caused WW2?"

If today's Democrats held the same basic beliefs as the "Nazi" Democrats, you're damned right I would.

Your logic is sound. And since neither I nor other Christians today hold the same basic beliefs as the Crusaders, you can therefore not hold that we are capable of the same attrocities.

"Their ONLY belief was that the Pope was the messenger of God."

This is either a MASSIVE oversimplification, or an out-and-out lie

Simplification, not OVERsimplification. Yes, they held other beliefs, but they all stemmed from that one. They believed what the Pope told them, regardless of whether it was consistant with the teachings of Christ, and thus they were NOT Christians.

Moreover, like you, they claimed to be the "REAL" Christians

Yes, but UNLIKE me, they didn't follow the teachings of Christ. Thus, not Christians. The definition of "Christian" is not someone who CLAIMS to follow the teachings of Christ, it's someone who DOES follow the teachings of Christ.

They worshippped God, they went to church, they followed the instructions church elders, their 'superiors,' and all that other rot. All those basic beliefs are still part of Christianity.

No. The only basic belief of Christianity is that we should follow the commands of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Their philosophy was totally disparate, in that they believed that they should follow the commands of those who claimed to represent the Son of God. A completely different concept.

If their superiors led them astray, that just shows the danger of listening to people who claim to be speaking for God. (Which every preacher/minister/rabbi/prophet/televangelist/charismatic/evangelistic/witness does.)

I have never, ever heard any preacher in any church I have ever attended claim to be speaking for God. The only person that even claimed to be Christian, aside from various cult leaders (Koresh, etc.), that I've ever known to do that in the last couple millenia is the Pope, and I ain't Catholic. All my preachers do is say, "You know, I've found somethin' really neat in here. Lemmie show you."

Your beliefs are based on many misconceptions, Rob.

You're not responding to the point. You asked for an example of major human suffering not caused by religion. I gave you one. Unless, of course, you count your irrational belief in a failed, unworkable system as a religion, but that sounds more like a cult.

I for one do not think there is anything wrong with marxism.

Even though it's never worked, and has led to tens of millions of deaths where it's been tried? Even though it's an affront to human freedom? Even though the basic tennants of it are diametrically opposed to human nature? Then you, sir, are a moron.

It may not have worked but it was due to the fact that the US and the rest of the capitalist world did their utmost to make SURE it didn't.

Stalin and Mao, in executing Marxist philosophy, killed tens of millions of people. Period. Now this is different from what I'm saying about Christianity in that they WERE following Marxist philosophy, whereas the Crusaders were NOT following the commands of Christ.

So you want to blame my entire religion for the actions of a few manipulative leaders that WEREN'T part of my religion, whereas I can't blame your flawed theories for the millions of deaths caused by manipulative leaders that DID subscribe to your theories?

Honestly, First of Two has dealt with the first and we've already established that they WERE following Christian beliefs.

As for the second....in Russia:
It is noticable that even Lenin wanted to remove Stalin from the Communist party...a relevant quote is dated January 4, 1923...if I had more time I would type it out in its entirety.

Stalin's purges were partially directed at the older Communists that actually paid attention to Marx because it threatened Stalin's power...which is ironic considering you're trying to use that as proof that he actually listened to Marx.

In China, Mao didn't follow Marxist beliefs either because he emphasied the peasant over the factory worker/proletariat. In fact, this and other ideological differences (Due to the fact that Mao emphasied the need to change Marxism to make it relevant to China) that lead China and Russia away from cooperating early on to actually having border incidents in the 60's.

So in short your logic is rather unsound.

Which leaves us with two possibilities:
A) Marx is responsible for how Stalin and Mao twisted his writings and by the same token, Jesus is responsible for how the Inquisition and Crusades twisted his sayings.
or
B) Jesus and the other founders of Christianity are not responsible for how others reinterpreted their sayings and thus Marx is not responsible for Stalin or Mao....and you'll have to give up your current violently illogical and unfounded hatred of Marx.

"...its proponents have this nasty habit of trying to expand, and thus take others with them when they go."