posted
That's true Omega. My personal belief is actually the exact opposite: "A cruel man makes a cruel God."
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Catholic church is not God
I'll take your word for it.
quote:People who use God to justify their hatred aren't God
Okay.
quote:Disapproval of actions is not hatred of those acting
I totally agree with that. I like to tie people to my bumper and drag them around the desert because I disagree with their actions. Better yet, I like to attempt to exterminate an entire race because of the actions of a few of their ancestors 1970 years ago.
quote:Nor were the Catholic Crusades an endorsement by God of hate
I didn't say anything about God or what It might endorse. I am talking about people using God to justify their hatred and violence toward their fellow human beings.
-------------------- "Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It?s us. Only us." Rorschach
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I like to tie people to my bumper and drag them around the desert because I disagree with their actions. Better yet, I like to attempt to exterminate an entire race because of the actions of a few of their ancestors 1970 years ago.
...and those would be actions borne out of hatred, not out of any Christian belief. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.
I am talking about people using God to justify their hatred and violence toward their fellow human beings.
The hatred already existed. Religion in those cases was just a convenient excuse, not the root cause.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
"The hatred already existed. Religion in those cases was just a convenient excuse, not the root cause."
I disagree. Hatred of human beings for one another stems from the belief that we are isolated beings separate from god, rather than one entity appearing to be separate. We hurt one another in the belief that it will help/heal us in some way, since your well-being is not necessarily connected to mine. In the belief in oneness, however, everyone and everything is a part of you and you are part of them, therefore hurting another is like biting your nose to spite your face, or something like that. And who teaches the notion of separateness? Most major religions. Jesus does mention something about whatever you do unto one of them you do unto me and we are all brothers and sisters and what not. But obviously Christians listen only once in a while.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
One time, I went and I found a pidgeon, and after finishing my milkshake I rammed him into this hole in the ground I found.
Registered: Oct 1999
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Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
Christians did not set up the death camps of WW2,Godless NAZI Fanatics did that. And most Christians are not perfect. If not for the teachings of Christ how do you think the European people would treat the rest of the world today. Carving the Blood Eagle into the backs of those who oppose us,making goblets of human skulls,using the flayed skins of our enemies as battle standards, blinding and castrating prisioners of war so they would make docile slaves, praying to Mars the god of war,etc. Christianity took centuries to make a dent in that kind of behavior. Would the world be a better place without Christianity?
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quote: Carving the Blood Eagle into the backs of those who oppose us,making goblets of human skulls,using the flayed skins of our enemies as battle standards, blinding and castrating prisioners of war so they would make docile slaves, praying to Mars the god of war,etc.
posted
You know, we've been through this argument so many times, with various people on one side, saying, well, I can't keep half the things they're saying straight in my head. On the other side, you have Omega (plus, occasionally, a few others) saying that the actions of a few people shouldn't reflect on Christianity or God as a whole.
Well, fair enough. I don't believe in God, so it matters not to me what his streetcred is like. Neither do I think that all Christians are equally evil. But I guess the question I keep asking myself, and I never see answered in these discussions, is - if I can express it clearly enough, it's late and I'm about to go home! - this: Given how many evil deeds have been perpetrated by self-proclaimed Christians, supposedly in God's name, why shouldn't we (us non-believers) treat anybody who makes such a claim, no matter how good their intentions and actions, with suspicion? Just because (say) the current pope isn't Tomas de Torquemada, doesn't mean he might not be equally deluded about the source of his actions. And can you - Omeychops - see why people like me treat such supposed do-gooders with suspicion as a result?
I hope that makes sense, I'm really not very good at religious debate because much of the time it holds so little interest for me!
posted
What, to put it bluntly, the fuck are you on? Are you suggesting that if the Nazis had been crazed 'Christian' supremesists rather than crazed racial supremecists, the death camps wouldn't have been built?
The actions of a few nutters will always give the more moderate sections of a particular group a bad name. Much evil has occured in the past and some of it has been the result of religious hatred and some has not. It doesn't necessarily follow that all the other people in either group are evil or that God/a leader endorses it. There are bits in the Bible which, if misinterpreted or taken out of context could be used to justify violence against non-believers, homosexuals, etc. This does not necessarily mean that all Christians interpret it this way or that it was meant this way.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
And exactly how many crazed Christian Supremist death camps have been built? The Crusades were a long time ago and the Spanish Inquisition was not well recieved by the rest of the Christian world in its time. How does Belief in God somehow make one a party to all the mischief of western civilization? Were the Ancient Greeks less warlike because they excepted homosexuality as a natural thing? Or the Spartans.Or Alexander the great. Religion does not create hatred,that hatred is there in some to begin with. Without religion Hatred goes unchecked,as the Nazi party and so many others have proven. Homosexuals also died in those camps as well as many Christians. http://member-of-resistance.ww2.Klup.info/ P.S. I thought Bashir might be Bisexual But that was probably because of the british accent. Though he did spend a lot of time with The engineer who seemed kind of leery of him.
[ September 26, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Mountain Man ]
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quote:Originally posted by Mountain Man: P.S. I thought Bashir might be Bisexual But that was probably because of the british accent.
Oh yeah, that's always a dead giveaway...
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
Registered: Feb 2001
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Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
To explain that a little better. The accent was an affectation. His attitude was that of some one who was hiding something. He was also unsure of himself. Not his manhood but his humanity. His hanging around Miles O'brian was not a sex thing, he looked at Miles as the Brother/playmate he never had as a kid. The Spy adventures on the Holodeck,and his friendship with the cardasian taylor reminded me of Kim Philby and his crew of communist spys. It all blends together,and was probably part of the plot all along. I'll bet that in the episodes where Bashir was really the founder changling he showed less of the uncertainty about himself than the real Bashir.
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posted
My goodness, a rational post on religion! From LEE, no less! Will wonders never cease...
Seriously, though, thanks for the effort. It's good to see someone try to break out of the circles we seem to lock ourselves into. In response, I'd have to say that you should examine the beliefs and actions of people on an individual basis, instead of letting your prejudices decide for you. Just because some guys claiming to be Christian did damage in the past doesn't mean you should write us all off.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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