quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: This may be of some help here... It certainly raised some heckles in its time.
Mark
Heckles? Or hackles?
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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posted
Like the bloody Spaniards!!! And we have to subsidise the buggers too!
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The current distance for Voyager 1 is about 90 AU out. But, as you read the article, they say that the probe isn't quite out of the solar system yet...
quote:n around 2020, Voyager 1 is expected to reach the heliopause at roughly 135 AU. This is where the Sun's influence fades away entirely and interstellar space begins. Astronomers will then get their first chance to measure the magnetic fields and energetic particles of interstellar space.
HOWEVER... if you look at the map image that's provided in the article, you'll notice that the heliopause is not a simple sphere, but rather a teardrop shape that makes me think of the magnetic fields of Earth, and probably has something to do with galactic rotation.
Another problem: the size (and distance) of the boundary of the "termination shock" -- the boundary that Voyager is currently crossing -- is not consistent, but will change based on the intensity of solar activity. Which makes sense -- as solar flares increase in frequency, there's going to be more solar gasses and particles pressing out against the interstellar medium.
At any rate, we now have some solid (albeit approximate) figures for the edge of the solar system. Any new thoughts?
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Registered: Nov 2000
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- Fandom (most notably the Star Fleet Tech Manual and Star Trek Maps) simply claims Federation space is a near-perfect sphere defined in some treaty. This would seem to invalidate the entire solar system boundary thing inside Federation space.
- Any sort of border based on natural phenomena looks to be too cumbersome. It seems no two stars have the same heliopause, Oort belt or whatever. A fixed distance (1 lightyear?) from the center of the star would, IMO, be the most workable.
posted
A perfect sphere for the Federation's "international" boundaries would be extremely illogical, simply because it take no account for the distributed locations of various non-Federation empires, and the location of friendly powers close to the border. There's ALWAYS some kind of irregular border along regions of contested expansion -- and I'm not sure if any region of Federation space wasn't contested at some point or another, considering how many enemy aliens we've seen over the years.
The only times that a truly "perfect" and straight (or curved consistently) border comes about is when that region has already been pacified and the two sides are on reasonably friendly terms -- like the US and Canada, for instance. The only other condition I can think of is when imperialist powers (Europe in the late 1800's) draw completely arbitrary lines (like in Africa) to divide territories without any regard for local culture or geography.
For the borders of an individual star system, I do think that there's not too much of an issue about boundaries, as long as it's a single star (or all members of a binary, trinary, etc.) system are under control of one governing authority.
The main question, instead, would be the disposition of interstellar space, unclaimed or unexplored star systems, and transit lanes for commerce. And that's more the realm of high politics that can often be settled on a case-by-case basis.
Back to the subject of this thread, I'm not entirely sure I understand what the difference is supposed to be between the "termination shock" -- where the solar wind runs into the interstellar medium -- is supposed to be different from the heliopause. I thought these were basically the same thing? The Slashdot article says that Voyager 1 has crossed the heliopause, while the New Scientist article I linked to first says they're two different things...
EDIT: Well duh, maybe I should read more before I press "reply"... The Wikipedia says that there are two definitions for heliopause -- one's the end of the solar wind, while the other is the limit of the sun's magnetic field.
I'd tend to prefer the solar wind idea, because magnetic fields can go for a really long way...
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
That New Scientist graphic is sort of confusing, or maybe it's just me. If both the heliopause and termination shock are based on the solar wind and interstellar medium, wouldn't they be roughly the same shape (if not the same thing)?
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posted
Yeah, that's what confused me. But it turns out that the New Scientist graphic is defining the heliopause as the boundary of the magnetic field, not the solar wind. And those apparently end at different places.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
Trek cosmotorial (cause it's not terra) boundaries... maybe it's just the point that is equidistant between the core of the two stars - so an amoeba like 3d boarder would appear when there are several inhabited star-systems in the vicinity.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
First off, where's Voyager 3-6 and the wormhole that got Voyager 6 on that graphic? (Only kidding).
You've definately got to just choose an arbitrary border perimeter like 1 LY from the stellar core given all of the different shapes and sizes of Heliospheres (Solar Wind and Magnetic Field) and Oort Clouds possible in different stars.
I've got a question. Earth's magnetic field is teardrop shaped because of the effects of solar wind right? So why would the Sun's magnetic field be teardrop shaped? I think they screwed up the graphic and made it teardrop shaped because they knew that's what Earth's MagField looked like but shouldn't the Sun's be roughly spherical since it doesn't experience any such "windblasting"?
I also liked the fact that they used the terms supersonic and subsonic speeds in space.
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posted
The Tholians just declare wherever their ships are to be "Our territory". It's easier that way.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote: The only times that a truly "perfect" and straight (or curved consistently) border comes about is when that region has already been pacified and the two sides are on reasonably friendly terms -- like the US and Canada, for instance. The only other condition I can think of is when imperialist powers (Europe in the late 1800's) draw completely arbitrary lines (like in Africa) to divide territories without any regard for local culture or geography.
Uh, wasn't the US/Canada border actually forged in bitter war? A similar straight-line solution was created for Korea, because negotiating the minutiae of a more complex border was doomed to fail.
There's also a third case where dirtside boundaries end up being straight lines. Namely, when there's nothing worth squabbling over in the area. Much of Sahara or the Arabian peninsula is divided that way, as is Antarctica. This must have been a factor in the US/Canada border, too.
I could see spatial borders in Trek drawn mainly on the "who cares" criteria, until there is bitter war, after which the "we can't agree so let's do the simple thing" criteria take over. It's unlikely that the space powers would really want to create complex dents in the border in empty space, thereby expanding its surface area, when they already are hard pressed to patrol whatever borders they have.
Come to think of it, has Starfleet ever used the "You are in Federation space, retreat at once" line on anybody else except the Romulans? Has being in UFP space without explicit permission ever been considered a crime?
posted
They were'nt very polite to those Borg fellows either. ...and they "only wished to improve the quality of life".
Territorial bastards.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
^^^ Good point. In the "Trouble with Tribbles" they just let a D-7 sidle on up next to the K-7 station and no questions were ever raised about them being in Federation space. Unless K-7 was some kind of Federation built and run but internationally open station located in neutral territory perhaps?
At least not until later when a Neutral Zone suddenly appeared between Klingon / Federation space in "TWoK" (Which featured the Kobayashi Maru in Gamma Hydra Section (Sector) 5 - previously mentioned as being in Romulan Space). Either Gamma Hydra is really big and crosses both Klingon and Romulan space, the Klingons conquered it from the Romulans some point after TOS, or Starfleet went bargain basement on the computer simulations and just altered one that used to feature the Romulans as adversaries. But that's another topic.
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posted
Not really, I think. There are examples of neutral, or even hostile, ships seemingly crossing Federation space:
- Mudd's (illegal) trading with Sirius, Deneb and Motherlode. He was caught, but he seemed to be able to at least travel around quite freely. - Orion pirates apparently could hijack cargo drones, disrupt a Babel conference and have a major base of operations on Farius Prime. - The Klingons waging war on Cardassia.. My 2D mind says they should've crossed Federation space to get there.
In case of the Romulans "Federation space" is of course simply defines as 'anything on this side of the Neutral Zone'. Some neighbours like the First Federation or the Melkotians also have very well defined borders, while other (Tholians, Sheliak) may not.
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The Wikipedia says that there are two definitions for ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
boundaries... maybe it's just the point that is equidistant between the core of the two stars - so an amoeba like 3d boarder would appear when there are several inhabited star-systems in the vicinity.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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