"The Germans won. Don't ask me how, or why. Maybe some alien force influenced it. Maybe some time travellers entered the picture. In any case, this is what happened afterwards..."

If things happen for no reason, not even one implied in the story, then it's fantasy.

TOS would still be science fiction because in its time, it could not know what would happen in 1992 (especially given the huge technological progress of its era). However, a show that still says they happened in 1992 just to maintain consistency is a bit more fantasy.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

The Star Trek Universe is not the real one. It is a fictional one where anything is subject to change at the will of the writers of the shows. NOTHING about it has to be the same as ours, but much of it does in order for us to be able to relate to it. Science fiction is merely fiction with some element of science contained within it. It does not necessarily have to be an extrapolation as you say, although that sort of prophetic writing is the most common and popular form of sci-fi. For the most part Trek is this form of sci-fi, though it can and has (as in the case of the Eugenics Wars, et al) diverged from real-life.

Gene Roddenberry said that Vulcan was 40 Eridani.
(for a more in-depth discussion of this, go here) It is 16.4 light years from the Sun.

Andoria is "a close neighbor" of Vulcan.

There are only two stars within seven light years of 40 Eridani: BD-3�1123 and Epsilon Eridani.

BD-3�1123 is a pathetic Spectral Class M star, with a practically zero chance of habitable planets.

Epsilon Eridani is a K, which while dim, could possibly have a habitable planet.

So Epsilon Eridani could be Andoria, except this doesn't explain where the Vulcan monastary is located.

Point in the Second: Trek diverged from our universe even in the present when (in TrekVerse) a giant nuclear weapons rocket (looking exactly like a Saturn IB) almost wiped out mankind thanks to our friendly neighborhood time traveling Starfleet officers. So has Star Trek been fantasy ever since "Assignment: Earth"?

Point in the Third: If these two major species are within twenty light years of each other, shouldn't we have detected them by now by the waste heat produced by their civilization? We've should've seen episodes of "I Love T'Lucy" and "The Ed Sullivok Show" by now. A civilization that's had warp drive for approximately 1,500 years by 2001 AD should've produced some evidence of their existence to us right off the bat. And don't give me any of that, "maybe they covered it up" bullshit. You try to cover up the waste heat produced by an entire interplanetary society. It ain't easy.

[Edited for grammer and one hell of a run-on sentence]

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]

quote:

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Originally posted by OnToMars:
Point in the First: Isn't all fiction speculative?

Point in the Second: Trek diverged from our universe even in the present when (in TrekVerse) a giant nuclear weapons rocket (looking exactly like a Saturn IB) almost wiped out mankind thanks to our friendly neighborhood time traveling Starfleet officers. So has Star Trek been fantasy ever since "Assignment: Earth"?

Point in the Third: If these two major species are within twenty light years of each other, shouldn't we have detected them by now by the waste heat produced by their civilization? We've should've seen episodes of "I Love T'Lucy" and "The Ed Sullivok Show" by now. A civilization that's had warp drive for approximately 1,500 years by 2001 AD should've produced some evidence of their existence to us right off the bat. And don't give me any of that, "maybe they covered it up" bullshit. You try to cover up the waste heat produced by an entire interplanetary society. It ain't easy.

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[2] There is no correlation between divergent history and a re-arrangement of the structure of the galaxy. In any event, it is a rather drastic solution to the problem. Why not merely postulate that Gene was mistaken, and Vulcan wasn't located at 40 Eridani after all?

Since we haven't seen orbiting nuclear platforms nor any hit of the Eugenic wars, Star Trek has entered the genre of "alternate history science fiction". But it does not make it "fantasy".

[3] Oh, my, where shall I start?
I LOVE LUCY is waste radio waves, not waste heat. SETI studies have shown that TV broadcasts are too faint to be detected by neighboring stars. The best one can hope for is the focused radio noise of the DEW line radars set up to detect Soviet nuclear missile attacks. Waste heat cannot be detected over interstellar distances unless one is dealing with a Dyson sphere or something of that magnitude. It has not been shown that Vulcan has had warp drive for 2000 years, the Romulans could have been kicked out of Vulcan on generation slower than light vessels. If the Vulcans had invented warp drive technology 2000 years ago, by now they would have ships that would make V'Ger look like a rubber raft.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nyrath:
Why not merely postulate that Gene was mistaken, and Vulcan wasn't located at 40 Eridani after all?

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Unfortunately, I'm thinking that this is increasingly more likely. If Enterprise is just now reaching P'Jem after nine weeks, then either that spy equipment is very powerful or the Vulcan/Andoria region is relatively close to P'Jem and farther from Earth.

Most of the time it just depends on when you're reading it, do you feel that there's some scientific element? It's the same with say, 'historical fiction.' How much history has to be in it to be called that? Is any story set during a historical time period 'historical fiction'?

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Originally posted by Sol System:
I find the distinction made here between science fiction and fantasy very unsatisfactory.

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In the History of Science Fiction course I took last semester, they repeatedly emphasized that the defintions are so loose that very few people can agree. Some say that there isn't a difference, others say it is a difference in "feel" more than anything else. Some say that science fiction has to be about a scientific idea, others say it has to only be in a scientific context. The one we went with was that science fiction is any story in which the story cannot exist without elements of either speculative science or unrealized applications of real science. By that definition, a show like CSI isn't science fiction, though it relies heavily on science, because it only uses "real" science. A hard scifi story might use only real science, but it is always applied in ways it is not currently applied. A soft scifi story (like Star Trek) might invent thigns which we currently believe to be impossible, but in the pretense that it is merely an elaboration of current science. Fantasy, on the other hand, assumes that science is fundamentally wrong in that the laws of physics may not apply, as with magic. Star Trek already borders closely with fantasy by this standard, with omnipotent noncorporeal beings, the Vulcan katra, and so on.

quote:

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[1] Depends on the definition and the context of the word speculative. But science fiction with no science in it is an oxymoron. Without the science to provide structure, it reverts to fantasy.
[2] There is no correlation between divergent history and a re-arrangement of the structure of the galaxy. In any event, it is a rather drastic solution to the problem. Why not merely postulate that Gene was mistaken, and Vulcan wasn't located at 40 Eridani after all?

Since we haven't seen orbiting nuclear platforms nor any hit of the Eugenic wars, Star Trek has entered the genre of "alternate history science fiction". But it does not make it "fantasy".

[3] Oh, my, where shall I start?
I LOVE LUCY is waste radio waves, not waste heat. SETI studies have shown that TV broadcasts are too faint to be detected by neighboring stars. The best one can hope for is the focused radio noise of the DEW line radars set up to detect Soviet nuclear missile attacks. Waste heat cannot be detected over interstellar distances unless one is dealing with a Dyson sphere or something of that magnitude. It has not been shown that Vulcan has had warp drive for 2000 years, the Romulans could have been kicked out of Vulcan on generation slower than light vessels. If the Vulcans had invented warp drive technology 2000 years ago, by now they would have ships that would make V'Ger look like a rubber raft.

And your points one and three are in contradiction. Either one says it is just all fantasy or one tries a scientific justification. But you cannot have it both ways.

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I don't see how my first and third points are contradictory.

With my second point, I was merely pointing out that synching universes is not merely a product of real life catching up to Trek predictions. They did something at the time the episode was produced that was divergent from the 'real' universe. By someone's previously stated definition, that would make it fantasy, which it most definitely is not. Personally, I'm with Ryan (I think it as Ryan, can't be bothered to double check) in saying 'Fuck it' and judging it on its merits as an episode and not its catagory.

My third point is still rather scientifically accurate. By 'waste heat', I was using the term as it applies from the Second Law of Thermodynamics and I will admit it was a rather general use of the term. But I used it specifically for generality as I was referring to any waste energy produced by a civilization. Perhaps I should've used 'waste energy' at the time, but it didn't occur to me until just now. Anyway, my point stands that if they were so close, if anybody were so close, we would've heard 'em by now.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]

In contrast, we know that the tech people, who are in the habit of giving us all these cool "no difference" factoids in the form of obscure computer screen readouts or dedication plaques or whatnot, do have an interest in preserving "Trek lore". Okuda tries to work the cubed warp-speed factor into "Enterprise" even though it's a losing battle, since he thinks it's part of the original Trek mythos. I'm sure he's making a similar attempt with the 40 Eri thing, and he's more likely to succeed there since no plot demands are hampering that effort.

As for Andor's identity, I can see pros and cons in the Epsilon Indi idea. The systems *are* rather proximate, even if there are other systems (like Sol!) in between. Contact between them would be trivially easy with starships of NX-01's caliber, and supposedly Vulcans have had ships like that for some time already. And both systems have K-class stars that thus might be of strategic interest to the other party (a home away from home), thereby promoting contact.

Then again, Epsilon Indi was never associated with Andorians in any episode, even though the star was mentioned. In fact, the Triacus folks (Gorgan's ancestors) were said to have operated there.

But the omissions of the earlier shows could easily be rectified in ENT. One could even innocuously have an Andorian refer to the Triacus pirates that so burdened and influenced his society's distant past, or something.