posted
Another thing that should be mentioned is that time makes events seem more condensed. Most of us today probably think of World War II as an "event", despite the fact that it lasted almost six years. For all we know, when Picard referred to the Klingon "first contact", he was actually referring to a whole series of events in the early history between humans and Klingons. Especially if most of those events involved Archer (the Klaang incident, the Rura Penthe incident, and whatever might be coming up in the show), they may be thought of collectively as "Klingon first contact" 200 years in the future.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:I don't think so. I mean, "disasterous" definition is pretty clear (heh, I starting to sound like Guardian 2000 ) I agree that your both examples can qualify as pretty darn bad things, but not extremaly bad or terrible, as in 'disasterous'.
No? If you're a Starfleet officer, your top duty is to ensure the sanctity of the Prime Directive. It gets violated, and you've failed in your duty. Furthermore, you may now be indirectly responsible for the murders of millions - can you imagine what might've happened if some clumsy Starfleet officer had left a hand phaser on a developing world? Well, gosh, now Johnny from down the block has taken his two bit hashish cartel, vaporized the military, and taken over the government!
As far as the Klingons go, the first contact started Earth and the Klingons down the road to hostilities and eventually open war. I'd call that pretty disasterous, wouldn't you?
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: As far as the Klingons go, the first contact started Earth and the Klingons down the road to hostilities and eventually open war. I'd call that pretty disasterous, wouldn't you?
AND
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Another thing that should be mentioned is that time makes events seem more condensed. Most of us today probably think of World War II as an "event", despite the fact that it lasted almost six years. For all we know, when Picard referred to the Klingon "first contact", he was actually referring to a whole series of events in the early history between humans and Klingons. Especially if most of those events involved Archer (the Klaang incident, the Rura Penthe incident, and whatever might be coming up in the show), they may be thought of collectively as "Klingon first contact" 200 years in the future.
I'm not sure I agree with you on two seperate accounts.
One being the WWII reference, thats a biggy, where millions upon millions were killed (directly or indirectly)...that has had a huge impact on our society as a whole, that hardly serves as a thought of or even referred to as a simple 'event'.
If, off the top of my head, you perchance said that the Korean War was a bit more forgotten (hence its nickname: "the forgotten war") that might better serve the point you were trying to make.
Secondly. I think, or so it would seem, when Picard is discussing a 'first contact' of disasterous proportions (one so disasterous that is made SF change its first contact procedures), in the episode of the same name...he is most likely discussing the 'beam down' and say 'hi' for the first time contact kind of f.c. (that was occurring in said episode). In which case a "disasterous" first contact would be like the 'Ghorusda Disaster' (starring Tam Elbrun), where 47+ get killed. That is my thoughts when I think of the Klingon reference and "disasterous".
And the reality of the entire debate is, the Klingons and Earth have had a few minor squibble-squabbles but the Klingons really haven't sent any ships to Earth yet (at least directed at Earth itself) so I still cannot see the 'disaster', especially compare to the other reference(s) of disasterous first contacts. I have never seen first contact be referred to as multiple contacts, as even the Tamarians ("Darmok") was referred to as 'first contact and then subsequent encounters'.
Besides, are relations between Earth and the Klingons any better than its relations with the Vulcans? Starfleet and Vulcan don't really seem to mutually get along, yet they seem to have a somewhat uneasy peace, same with the Klingons. Consider, too, the apparent personalities of the Vulcans and the Klingons to the types of policital relations between the two powers (towards Earth), their situations are nearly the same, especially if you take into account the 90 years of marinating the Vulcans have had on Earth, you'd think by now they would be best buddies, but they are not. Due to that fact, does that not mean the Vulcan/Earth first contact is as equally disasterous as the Klingon/Earth (if you want to count a first contact as a span of events), when all that is going on is a bunch of head-butting?
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posted
Picard's no stranger to sweeping genertalisations. . . Some of the things he said in Insurrection about forced migrations for instance.
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Assumptions needed to make Picard's words compatible with ENT:
Set A:
-Within at most a few years of the 2151 Klingon FC, a real "disaster" does result (and ENT better show this to us!). -This "disaster" involves major loss of life, outbreak of war, things of that nature - just losing NX-01 will not count... -This "disaster" is a direct consequence of the FC, and would not have happened had the FC been handled the way Picard handles the Malcorians.
Set B:
-Picard refers to a FC other than the 2151 one, perhaps the Vulcan/Klingon one at some earlier date. -Again, the "disaster" is a big one, but this time we need not see it happening in ENT, as it has already happened before the show began. The "decades of hostilities" Picard mentions will no doubt refer to the ca. 2218-2293 timeframe here, as well as in set A. -Again, the "disaster" could have been avoided had PD protocols been in place.
So basically, any subtle hint that the Vulcans pissed off the Klingons in the past would be all that we need. Picard need not be considered a human chauvinist (even if he doth quote Shakespeare to that effect), and he would certainly bunch up the Vulcans into his first person plural if it served his purpose with the Malcorians.
Of course, I'd be happier if ENT did a whole episode based on this putative Vulcan mistake. Yet I could live even if ENT never even mentions that the Vulcans soured up things with the Klingons - after all, the Vulcans in the show could have a reason to stay mum about the blunder.
posted
Ah here we go...noticed something else in here that might get some notice as well:
quote:PICARD: Chancellor, no starship mission is more dangerous than first contact. We never know what we face when we open the door to a new world. How will we be greeted? What are the dangers? Centuries ago, a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then that we must do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. But I believe it prevents more problems than it creates.
DURKEN: I appreciate the logic of your position, Captain. But it would seem a full disclosure after contact would have been in order.
PICARD: In time, there would have been full disclosure. I know I can only ask you to believe that. On some worlds, it is not even an issue. But here, everything our observers reported suggested the people of this world would almost certainly react negatively to our arrival. We could see our surveillance might even be interpreted as an act of aggression.
I was hoping that we would find Commander Riker before you did...so the matter would not complicate our introduction. And it was a mistake.
Quite clearly the "centuries ago" thing throws a monkey-wrench into the debate....then again there is the whole "McCoy and '50-years of hostilities'" argument.
Clearly the rest, "a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war" would seem to nullify the 'oh, it built up (or happened) over a period of time'. Cut 'n dry, 'A' lead 'B' contrary to 'AB' are one in the same.
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Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Well, let's see. Humans treated Klingons like humans ("I'll bet they'll hate it if this guy gets killed, and if we give them a hand they'll no doubt feel indebted to us.") as a result of not having the proper cultural intelligence on file (and not listening to the people who claimed to have it), and the Klingons, being Klingon, and not human, reacted in a nonhuman way.
Brilliant storytelling? I don't think it was carried off to the extremes it could have been, though I think the concept is neat. (People burned by their best intentions.) But certainly not some unimaginable breach in the Natural Order of Things. (Which isn't to say it isn't a breach at all, if one really wants to make it out to be so.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I must point out that any First Contact is one, single event, impossible to confuse with five-years war... but Futurama Guy already said that
So, Picards quote is vague, but please remember that as of right now there is no way (except time travel) for Klingon-Terran First Contact to be the cause of those "decades of war". Like I was saying, we were given completely different cause of hostilities. And yes, Klingons and Terrans aren't at war yet, but sending Duras to retrieve Archer is, at least in my opinion, a clear sign that things can get ugly very quick.
Oh, and going back to the "rewriting history books", scenario: although I can't say that that scenario is completely impossible, remember that its Berman and Braga we are talking about - they simply doesn't appear to be interested in doing that kind of stories.
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quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: So, Picards quote is vague, but please remember that as of right now there is no way (except time travel) for Klingon-Terran First Contact to be the cause of those "decades of war". Like I was saying, we were given completely different cause of hostilities. And yes, Klingons and Terrans aren't at war yet, but sending Duras to retrieve Archer is, at least in my opinion, a clear sign that things can get ugly very quick.
It would seem that decades of war could be including or be specifically the events of TOS. Take McCoys: "50-years of hostilities" comment and stack that on to everything up to the Organian Peace Treaty (where War was officially declared in that episode) would account for decades of war...
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posted
Assuming that he posted quote is, indeed, what was said in the episode, then it doesn't seem like we need much rationalization at all. Archer's first contact with the Klingons gave them a bad first impression of humans. If they had had a good first impression, the events leading up to the decades of war may not have happened. The only issue is the word "disastrous". And it seems that anything that's been deemed "leading to decades of war" would be considered "disastrous". "Disastrous" doesn't have to be interchangeable with "millions of people died right at that instant as a direct result".
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
With all due respect... I think it's a lame rationalization. Those events leading to the war could happen regardless of whenever their first impression was good or bad. And besides, Archer thought he made a good impression. T'pol seemed to agree with that. Only their later actions have angered Klingons.
Take Judgement, for example. If this was First Contact with the Klingons, then I could certainly agree that it could be described as disasterous. And right now, with Archer being an escaped convict and Duras being send to apprehend him I have no problems with accepting that events of Judgement could lead to the "decades of war".
But these events are completely separate from the FC with Klingons.
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
And I think the point that Picard was making was simply this:
Understand the people you make contact with FIRST before trying to forge out an alliance or galactic relationship with them !!!
But - the way it happened in Ent. is that there was really NO First Contact... Only a crash landing and a klingon getting shot by a farmer!
And i think what Picard was saying was.. based on the BROAD differences in culture - the Federation had to LEARN to govern their First Contact experiences, because of the hostilities that ensued after the Klingons and Terrans were introduced..
During the Kirk era - there are clearly conflicts !! and they lasted Decades... From TOS to the movies - 30 years passes - and only in Undiscovered Country do these differences start to get ironed out.
Now that we are still on the Klingons... I'd like to point out as well that I watched Trials and Tribblations this weekend... and found it hilarious that they went out of their way to point out the cranial differences in the Klingons of the date and Worf...
In Ent... the Klingons have WORF-HEADS... What gives??? hahaha... in 100 years of evolution - the Klingons went from a huge spiky foreheads.. to none at all - AND THEN BACK to the Worf-Heads some 80 years later !
quote:Originally posted by Alshrim: In Ent... the Klingons have WORF-HEADS... What gives??? hahaha... in 100 years of evolution - the Klingons went from a huge spiky foreheads.. to none at all - AND THEN BACK to the Worf-Heads some 80 years later !
Interesting eh? Darwin would have a field day.
It would be interesting, if we were still living in 1997.
Klingons have always had cornish pasty forheads, ever since TNG. Only "Trials and Tribble-ations" (and TOS, obviousy) shows that the Klingons of the 2260s had flat heads. Personally, I would have prefered it if it had been left alone, although in the context of the episode, it was quite funny as a joke, so I'm not really that bothered.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I agree that the Picard quote is rather vague. We may find or make up something that may happened immediately or some time after that first contact.
Not that I wouldn't generally trust his words, but may he just have been a bit confused? I mean, knowing galactic history, he could have picked a far better example, one similar to the first contact situation with the Malcorians. The Malcorians don't even know the Klingons, and Picard definitely knows more than only Klingons.
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