posted
So, changing from rebelious outsider to member of the team, befriending Harry, acting as a decoy to capture spy, getting married and getting second job doesn't count as character development?
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No. It counts as points on a checklist. I mean, liked his friendship with Harry, but it wasn't really "Character Development". He was friends with him by the second episode, if I recall correctly.
The marriage thing, maybe. I don't even remember him getting a second job, though...
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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I'm curious... if all those events count only as point on checklist, then what so important happened in last episode that counts as 98% of character developemnt?
And exactly how is Enterprise better in this regard?
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Except Paris was drafted into medical duty in the pilot, if I recall correctly, which just reinforces Liam's point.
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No. He merely got down to sickbay with Harry when it was blown up. And it was mainly Harry who was doing nurse job "Tricorder." (Harry hands one) "Medical tricorder!"
And there's still that getting to be part of the team and falling in love with B'elanna thingy
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Paris was part of the team AND a nurse by the second episode. The only real aspects his character had were a love of flying and an interest in the twentieth century. The only change his character went through was an interest in B'Elanna.
Compare the third episode of Voyager to the end of it. What changes are there? B'Elanna isn't QUITE as angry, and the doctor is almost human. Kes grew up a bit, but then left. Seven didn't change much between her fourth ep and almost the very end of the series, and that last change was never dealt with. So aside from the Doctor and Kes, show me any characters in Voyager whose personalities in their third episode weren't just the same as their personalities in the last. THAT is lack of character development.
Compare to Enterprise. Mayweather may be MIA, but T'Pol, Tucker, and Archer at the very least have changed some since the show started, and that much I know wihtout having even watched half the series. THAT's character development. It's no B5, it's no DS9, but it's better than Voyager.
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Let's see... Tuvok. Paris. B'elanna. Harry. I think that with possible exception of Janeway everyone got some character development in Voyager.
And let's compare it with Enterprise... Hm... So T'Pol got sick. And Trip lost sister. And Archer switched to badass mode. And Hoshi isn't easily scared now.
OK, so I grant that there was some change in Archer - he actually starts acting like responsible adult. But besides that and Hoshi I haven't noticed any character development.
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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posted
Kim got developed? When?
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Of course, all of this depends on whether you like to see Trek as character-driven or plot-driven.
Personally, I found 7 years of "We're lost in the Delta Quadrant trying to get home, facing random forehead aliens trying to take over the ship, and the BORG!" to wear quite thin indeed. Now, ENT has had a number of quite interesting and distinct plot archs. (Temporal Cold War, Vulco-Andorian conflict & Earth's role therein, developing hostility with the Klingons, internal social conflict on Vulcan, Romulan first contact, Xindi attack, MACOs vs. Starfleet, to name a few, and that's only been the first three seasons!)
Also ENT is much less filled with nonsensical as opposed to sensical technobabble, (though it has its guilty moments too) rushed and unfullfilling climaxes, and abandoned/inconsistent premises than VGR.
-MMoM
[ February 15, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: I'm curious... if all those events count only as point on checklist, then what so important happened in last episode that counts as 98% of character developemnt?
The second episode, not the last.
And I said "points on a checklist" because Star Trek fans have a strange idea about what character development means. Bashir changing from an arrogant, smug, insensitive bastard to an understanding and mature adult it character development. However, a large number of people think that "getting promoted to full lieutenant" counts as character development.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Kim got developed? When?
I'm still not 100% sure when Tuvok got character development.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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Maybe in the episode where he secretly yearns for the murderer's thoughts. Or when he's stuck on the planet with Tank Girl. But not Tuvix. I don't want to talk about Tuvix.
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That's not character development. For it to be development, he has to, well, developed.
Compare Bashir and O'Brien's relationship in a season 1 episode to a season 7. Completely different. Compare Tom and Harry's relationship in, say, "Time And Again", and a random season 7 one. It's the same.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: Maybe in the episode where he secretly yearns for the murderer's thoughts. Or when he's stuck on the planet with Tank Girl. But not Tuvix. I don't want to talk about Tuvix.
Tuvok was never so much developed as Tim Russ managed to make the chracter his own. Tuvok is probably Voyager's main redeeeming feature, IMHO.
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Cartman, Harry Kim was developed in "Demon", for instance. And yeah, sure, it was kinda sudden, I agree
Tuvok - well, I consider him "dancing" for Neelix a character development
B'elanna - falling in love and getting married pretty much counts as character development, doesn't it?
ditto for Tom.
Neelix - his girlfriend dumped him. Also, although he was cook pretty much all the time, his other respinsibilities rather fluctated.
Psyliam - Doh! My mistake (and no, I don't consider getting promoted a character develompent )
MMiM, as you probably imagine, I disagree. Here you can read part of the ENT bible - count how many abandoned/inconsistant premises are there. And I consider ENT technobabble not bad, but terrible. Remember "Rogue Planet", for example? Their intensive plot recycling doesn't help either. And Archer is just plain stupid. And ongoing plot arches doesn't make much sense, too, with the possible exception of Xindi arch, which is getting weirder and weirder with each episode
The funny thing is, some of those plots would not be present at all, if certain species acted like they are supposed to.
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