posted
Mark, did you get that from watching the episode? If so, is the line I thought I remembered from it in there, or can the number of Starfleet/Alliance ships be derived from the 20-to-1 line?
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I can't remember exactly, if it was the Klingons alone or the combined Alliance forces. I believe it was the latter. However, I quite distinctly remember Martok's guttural "we will be outnumbered twenty to one" line.
posted
It was the Klingons alone. Martok, Sisko and Worf were going over how Gowron was using the (in comparison to the Dominion fleet) miniscule Klingon forces in combat.
posted
Is the number of Klingon ships explicitly stated, or can the number of ships be determined from the line, or are they just said to be outnumbered 20-to-1?
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OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
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posted
I'd imagine that they would've been more careful than that. They've always avoided coming anywhere close to explicitly stating how many ships comprise Starfleet.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
You do have to think about just what forces Martok was talking about. After all, both the Klingons and the Dominion seem to like using large numbers of comparitively tiny ships in their fleets, while the Feds and Romulans seem to prefer larger ships.
So, if the Dominion truly had thirty thousand ships, it's a fair bet that a hefty chunk of that number would be taken up by attack ships and possibly a healthy number of Hidekis. And of course, this may or may not include the number of logistical support ships helping them out. If you linclude that possible number, that could even things out somewhat as you could be including ALL the Dominion/Cardassian suppport ships, and only what ships the Klingons brought with them.
So even if these ships are of any breakdown between combattants and non-combattants, we can probably rationalize the huge numbers with the comparitively puny Klingon fleet.
posted
Its not certain that the 1500 number represent the klingon's entire combat fleet.
Although the klingons, who behaves not like Romulans, will probably not hold back part of their forces as reserves for their home systems.
And i think runabouts are counted as ships...and that starfleet like the Dominion, utilizes alot of these smaller ships[runabouts, Oberths, Novas] as the backbone of the fleet with only a few hundred really big captital ships like the Nebulas, Excels...etc.
And i'm more inclined to believe that Starfleet only ever had around a dozen Galaxies other than a few hundred Galaxy classes.
posted
I'm inclined to think that Starfleet didn't as much smaller ships as everyone else, period. Klingon BoPs are atleast effective against Jem'hadar attackships, we really can't say the same for the Runabout or the Oberth. And the Nova was build as a short range survey vessel or something, same area as the Oberth. Anyhoo, the most numberous Starfleet ships we see are Mirandas, followed by Excelsiors.
As for the composition of the Dominion Fleet, I think a large part of that would be the Jem'Hadar attackships. We really don't see that many Hidekis during the series. Besides, Cardassian capital ships have enought trouble holding their own against everyone else, imagine what it'd be like for the Hideki. Also, the Dominion seemed to have a crazy rate of ship productions. Their ships can't take damage quite as well larger ships, but they can deal at levels equal to many larger ships. It'd make better sense to construct a lot of Jem'Hadar attackships rather than their lesser Cardassian equivilant.
-------------------- "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
posted
If, indeed the Klingon's had a fleet of 1500 starships (as a second person has seemed to recall) at the time (or that number can be deduced from the dialogue), we could possibly proceed from this data point on very roughly guessing the size of Starfleet. Even accounting for the losses the Klingon fleet undoubtedly suffered, and I think a loss rate of 50% would be catastrophic, the Klingon fleet probably originally numbered a few thousand vessels (2000 to 4000). I, personally, do not think the number of Starfleet "capital" ships (not including registered shuttles, runabouts, and other craft (those 70,000 registries have to represent something)) would be more than two or three, maybe four, times greater than the number of Klingon ships, giving us a Starfleet of 4000 (2000x2) to 16,000 (4000x4), before accounting for losses to the Dominion.
My speculation is certainly not meant to seriously establish any real idea of Starfleet's size, but I do think the suggestions of a 40,000 ship Starfleet are a bit over the top. Thus, if the Klingon's had a (partially decimated) fleet of 1500, I do not think it reasonable to believe Starfleet numbered more than 10,000 "capital" ships. (Personally, I fall into the "small Starfleet" school, with the organization only having a few thousand ships, at best.)
[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Raw Cadet ]
posted
The only concrete stats in regards to ships are the 7th fleet number.
All other stats do not really shed too much light on the total size of any side’s armada because you can interpret it in any number of ways.
For example, take the Dominion's reinforcements of 2000 ships.
If the Federation had 40,000 ships and combined that number with her allies, they stand with more than 100,000 ships against the Dominion.
How can 2000 ships combined with the Dominion force already present possible ensure that they can "overrun" the quadrant?
One wrong move, and you would loose 2000 ships in the blink of an eye [in which case happened due to divine intervention] . 2000 ships did not bring any certainty to the war.
Its too inconsequential of a number when compared to 40,000 + ships But if that number were in the mere thousands, then yes, 2000 would only then make a difference, or at least a substantial difference in the balance of power.
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
But if both sides had their forces spread out rather thinly, 2,000 ships could provide enough reinforcements to launch a major counter-offensive and overwhelm the Federation Alliance defenses.
For example, the Federation has 500 ships defending two sectors. The Dominion has 500 ships defending their side of those two sectors. Their is a stalemate -- the Federation wins some battles, the Dominion wins others. The balance of power remains about the same.
With the Dominion reinforcements, their fleet of now twenty-five hundred ships is able to punch through the Federation lines, and once through, wreck havoc throughout the Federation's infastructure, destroying starbases, communication relay stations, food processing centers, and storage depots. The Federation, stretched as thinly as it is, has to pull ships off the front line to combat this offensive fleet and defend targets that until now had not needed individual defenses. With their defenses weakened, the Dominion forces are then able to overwhelm the Federation and Klingon lines of defense, forcing the Federation to pull back and draw their new lines of defense closer to the core worlds of the Federation and the Empire.
In this theory -- and this *is* a theory -- 2,000 ships could provide enough resources to strike a serious blow to the Alpha Quadrant forces.
posted
Gosh, remember the good old TNG days when Starfleet would take an entire year to make up for the loss of 39 or 40 ships. In the years between BOBW and the Dominion War, shipyard capacity must have exploded to be able to construct a fleet of 4,000 or 40,000 ships so fast.
If we look again at the WWII USN, I think I heard that total strength, including landing craft, transports, LSTs, PT boats, and such, was around 6000 ships. Of these 6000, 1700, or about 30%, were named combatants. So IF (a big if) we believe that Starfleet has 40,000 ships of all types, combatants might be around 11,000, which is still a hell of a lot of ships.
I'm sorry for starting another debate on fleet size
-------------------- When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
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posted
The episode you are referring to is "Tacking Into the Wind," Raw Cadet, but it seems everyone is too lazy to look up the information for you. I don't have the epsiode on tape, so I can't tell you. So, can anyone answer his question?
quote:Originally posted by Veers: The episode you are referring to is "Tacking Into the Wind," Raw Cadet, but it seems everyone is too lazy to look up the information for you. I don't have the epsiode on tape, so I can't tell you. So, can anyone answer his question?
Thank you for coming up with an episode title (I am not very good with remembering "Deep Space Nine" episode names). This should make it easier for someone to check my claim that "1500 ships" and "outnumbered 20-to-1" was spoken in said episode . Personally, I suspect that those who believe in a 40,000 ship Starfleet ( ) are conspiring not to check, for the claim could call their theory into question .
Registered: Oct 2001
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) are conspiring not to check, for the claim could call their theory into question 
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