posted
MMoM: I noticed that you have the U.S.S. Challenger NCC-2032 listed as a Challenger class ship. Since the Challenger class Buran model was made from Galaxy class parts, it's highly doubtful that this is the class ship.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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Did you know the USS Cairo was in "Preemptive Strike?" Look in the ship list in the encyclopedia (page 471). I looked back on the episode and, although it was not mentioned by name, there is an Excelsior-class ship that delivers Admiral Nechayev to the Enterprise. This must be the Cairo. (This is not in the main text and I have not seen this mentioned on any website)
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Red Admiral: An intersting compilation, and nice work Monkey. Some things though:
-Merrimack, with a 'K', is correct Guardian.[QUOTE]
I doubt that. The Monitor and the Merrimac were, based on the registries, probably built simultaneously. The history that the ship names draw from involves a ship called the Merrimac . . . no 'K'. Even if the ship were labelled Merrimack, it would be an error, and one that I'd prefer to see ignored in favor of the correct spelling.
[QUOTE]-I agree with Guardian on that I don't believe there was a Cheyenne Class Ahwahnee in 'Redemption'.[QUOTE]
Actually, I questioned the Ahwahnee, but in retrospect they could have simply brought an older, never-completed spaceframe out of storage and replaced the ship with it.
[QUOTE]-Connie Yorktown correct, the Flashback ship mentioned was another unknown ship.[QUOTE]
Why?
[QUOTE]-Monkey, where'd you get the name 'USS Bonchune' from Message in a Bottle? Is there a reference I've missed?[QUOTE]
Actually, I was able to download the episode, and as I recall (I don't have it on this computer) the name is referenced verbally. The Dutch subtitles told me how to spell it, or else I would have been lost.
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posted
The constitution-class Yorktown was in ST:IV it was disabled by the probe.. according to Okuda, the Yorktown, or a new Yorktown that was replacing that, was renamed Enterprise-A at the end of that movie. either way, the original Yorktown was no longer in service by ST:VI, when Flashback was set. Its a second Yorktown, class-unknown, registry-unknown.
Most Starfleet type sources say Merrimac, but i think Merrimack has some historical validity somewhere along the lines. Kind of like Endeavor/Endeavour.
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"'USS Carolina, NCC-160 . . . where does the registry come from, and the class?'
"Encyclopedia-2.
"That is in direct contradiction to the statement on TNG that such a ship hasn't been in service for 172 years."
Yes, I know that. I don't accept the class, either. I was just telling you where he got the info.
"'USS Magellan, Constellation Class . . . where does this come from in the episode?'
"I don't think it is. But it's in the Encylcopedia-2.
"So, in other words, they just sorta made it up."
Well, as it's a fictional show, of course it was made up. But it most likely wasn't invented solely for the Encyclopedia. It was probably on an obscure Okudagram somewhere at some point. That's where Okuda got most of the Encyclopedia registries that appear to have come from nowhere.
"The Concord of the Freedom Class is correct also, though I have it spelt without the 'e' on the end."
"Concord" is a city. "Concorde" is a jet. I'd say it was more likely named after the city. ("Concord" is also a grape, but that probably isn't important.)
"What canon info is there on a 'Hermes Class'?
"I'm not sure how to explain that, although I know the Hermes was seen on a computer display in ST II. This, along with the Saladin, which might be Hermes class."
The Hermes, Saladin, and Ptolemy classes are from Franz Joseph's book. The diagrams from the book appeared on a background display in ST2. They were literally just copies of the pages from the book. However, because the pages were rectangular, and the display was round, the actual names were never on screen. So, the designs are technically canon, but the names aren't.
"The Monitor and the Merrimac were, based on the registries, probably built simultaneously. The history that the ship names draw from involves a ship called the Merrimac . . . no 'K'."
Not true. To be historically correct, the name is not spelled "Merrimac" or "Merrimack". It's spelled "Virginia".
"Actually, I was able to download the episode, and as I recall (I don't have it on this computer) the name [USS Bonchune] is referenced verbally. The Dutch subtitles told me how to spell it, or else I would have been lost."
Somehow, I doubt that. Especially since, as mentioned, Bonchune is one of Mojo's cronies at Foundation. I doubt the writers of the episode knew that the CGI guys were going to stick his name on the hull. Besides, if it had been mentioned in dialogue, we all would have known about it years ago, rather than having to wait until Mojo told us (or however we found out).
[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: TSN ]
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In reference to the Merrimac(k) issue, the ship is supposed to be named after CSS Virgina in relation to USS Monitor. But there was a USS Merrimac(k) in pre-Civil War times (which became the Virginia). There was also a USS Merrimac(k) in service for the Union navy during the Civil War as well. Both ships have had both spellings listed in documents in reference to the ships. They were named after the town of whom I believe the residents also are in disagreement over how to spell the name, and so the town name has also been spelled both ways. I don't know how the name was spelled in the script, but Merrimack just looks better.
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posted
I'll respond to Guardian2000's points first:
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: USS Ahwahnee . . . where do we have a registry number for the ship in "Redemption"? I saw no Cheyennes in Picard's fleet, and cannot fathom how a lower registry number could come from a replacement starship.
USS Alka-Selsior . . . ugh. I would say that we should really not let in-jokes count for anything, but, on the other hand, this would serve to make the point that the ships lost at Wolf 359 were not left there. Obviously, they were salvaged, or left to rot at Qualor II.
USS Carolina, NCC-160 . . . where does the registry come from, and the class? That would put a Daedalus in operation some 70 years after the class was retired, and short of some sort of replication of the Bozeman experience, I don't see how that could be possible.
USS Centaur . . . though it used many Excelsior components, it was not an Excelsior any more than Reliant was a Constitution Class ship.
USS Concorde . . . where is it mentioned or referred to in "All Good Things"?
USS Constellation, NCC-1974 . . . would it not be prudent to assume that the Constellation from DS9 was not NCC-1974? Taking the example of the retired Hathaway (NCC-2593), I'd assume that the far older class-ship would have been retired. The only definitely known operational Constellation Class Starship was the Victory, which with a registry in the 9000 range, would put her as being far younger than the class ship, not much older than the Ambassador.
USS Dauntless . . . why is she included, since she was an alien construct? Granted, that was a kickass alien construct, and I'd love to see that design actually used down the road, but still . . .
USS Drake, Andromeda Class . . . what's an Andromeda?
USS Gettysburg, NCC-3890 . . . did we see her in DS9, or was she only mentioned? If only mentioned, I'd assume, as with the Constellation, that the old ship had been retired.
USS Hathaway . . . when/how was she mentioned/seen in "Redemption"?
USS Intrepid, NCC-38907 . . . what was Geordi doing trying to beat out a far older starship in engine efficiency experiments? I assumed the Intrepid mentioned was another Galaxy Class.
USS Magellan, Constellation Class . . . where does this come from in the episode?
USS Melbourne . . . since we actually see her clearly in Emissary as an Excelsior, would this not then be the "reality" of the thing?
USS Merrimack . . . the correct spelling is "Merrimac".
USS Spector . . . should that be "Spectre"?
USS Valiant, NCC-20000 . . . an Oberth Class Valiant? No way, dude. That is so wrong! "Let us bravely go study some big space fart or other gaseous anomaly!" :-)
USS Voyager . . . Intrepid/Constitution variant . . . methinks we could safely ignore this one, or say it was some alien name like "Vovager" or something. I'm very much against starships of the same name serving simultaneously, especially when the registry would indicate that they were built around the same time.
USS Yorktown, NCC-1717 . . . why the assumption that this is not the same ship as in "Flashback"[VGR]?
Unnamed NCC-4000 . . . where does this registry come from? It's way out of time-synch.
Guardian 2000
1. The second Ahwahnee's reg is from an okudagaram from the episode showing the deployment of the tachyon detection grid.
2. Yes this is just an in-joke, but I threw it in anyway. Take it with a grain of salt.
3. The registry comes from the Encyclopedia, and while it does seem a bit of a stretch, people have rationalized explanations for how the Carolina could be a Daedalus. Anyways, it was just a hoax by the Klingons, so I don't think we have to worry about it too much.
4. The Centaur is officially an Excelsior-class starship variant, as per the DS9 Technical Manual.
5. As TSN said, the Concord was ordered to the Neutral Zone by Admiral Nakamura along with 15 other ships to investigate a Romulan military buildup.
6. No, I don't think there's any reason to think that the Constellation is not the original. Primarily, for the same reason why there's no reason the Excelsior from "Interface" can't be the same as from STIII. These ships last a long time. They may be overhauled many-times-over, and undergo countless systems upgrades throughout their service, but there's really no reason why the ship itself can't easily last up to a hundred years and possibly beyond. (This very subject is discussed in the TNG Technical Manual. The Galaxy-class was designed to last for that long.) If the Constellation was a fairly new vessel (still carrying an NX- number and undergoing certification tests) in 2293 (at the time of TUC), I think it's perfectly plausible that it is still seeing duty in the early 2370's.
7. The Dauntless is included simply because I of my conjecture that such a ship would in fact have to exist in order to have fooled the VGR crew so easily. It's probably not too solid, but I'd like to keep it there just for now.
8. The second Drake's information is in the Encyclopedia, originally from an okudagram.
9. See number 6. Same goes here.
10. A screencap of the "Redemption" ship done by The Red Admiral showed it to be labeled with the Hathaway's registry number. This of course refutes the commonly-held notion that the ship in that episode was the U.S.S. Valkyrie.
11. No, the second Intrepid has always been an Excelsior no matter where you look. (Encyclopedia, web site, and probably from an okudagram originally.)
12. The Magellan's info is presented in the Encyclopedia, and it presumably came from an okudagram in the episode.
13. The "reality" of it is that there were two ships bearing the name and number of the Melbourne. The Excelsior was seen in "Emissary" (DS9), and the Nebula was seen in BOTH "Best of Both Worlds" (TNG) and "Emissary". I refuse to simply ignore the existence of one or the other. I think there's plenty of rationalizations that could be made, likely having to do with the scrambling of as many vessels as possible for the battle (including scrap-jobs, etc.) or something along a similar line. In any case, the fact is that there were two Melbournes.
14. Actually, the correct spelling is MERRIMACK. The first edition of the Encyclopedia spelled it wrong. The error is corrected in the later editions. Easy to get mixed up, though. There were two Union vessels in service during the Civil War, the Merrimack and the Merrimac. The former was the ship that was sunk in the Elizabeth River, and then whose hulk was salvaged by the Confederates and converted into the ironclad Virginia. Since this is the ship that the Nebula was named for, the 'k' spelling is correct. I believe the okudagrams bear that out.
15. Nope, Spector. From the Fact Files.
16. The Oberth from Generations was labeled with that name and registry. Sorry if you don't like it.
17. This is an admitted conjecture. I don't think we've yet received a definite confirmation as to whether this model was in fact used in the battle sequences of DS9 "A Time to Stand", but most of us seem to be pretty confident that it was.
18. Err...because it was converted to the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-A at the end of STIV?!
19. NCC-4000 comes from a display on the Enterprise bridge in STIII. The display was a slide of a page from the Franz Joseph Technical Manual, depicting the tug U.S.S. Ptolemy NCC-3801 pulling a cargo module labeled with the registry. (The Technical Manual itself would imply that the "transport containers" got their own registry numbers, but as far as canon goes, that registry could easily be that of another ship to which the module was attached, a la shuttlecraft.)
There you are.
Now, to other questions:
1. The Bonchune. This was the Nebula-class ship that persued the U.S.S. Prometheus in "Mesage in a Bottle" (VGR). The name was confirmed by Mojo.
3. The Hiroshima. The only place this ship has ever appeared is in the second edition of the Encyclopedia. I include it for the sake of completeness.
4. The Nash. This was the Sydney-class ship that appeared here and there throughout DS9, always for some strange reason flying *upside-down*. The registry is a stumper, it's the Jenolan's number with a 'B' added to it. Certainly, a wierd little ship. Here's a pic of the model: http://home.arcor.de/spike730/starfleet_ships/canon/pics/nash.jpg
5. Class ships in TUC. For the purposes of my list, (and I've recently written Okuda asking for confirmation, though I have received no reply yet) I am assuming that the Springfield, Challenger, Whorfin, and Korolev from the displays/charts in TUC were intended to be the class prototypes of the respective TNG-era ship classes of the same names. Personally, I just feel that it's too much of a coincidence to think these names were all presented to us and were not intended as a nod to TNG, especially with all the other such homages hidden within the film.
6. Madison or Manson? Well, the CC said Madison so...
I guess that's about it. -MMoM
[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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Well, the Whorfin wasn't a TNG era ship, so no problem there. I don't have a problem with the Korolev either, if only because there's no design for it ( the 5XXXX registry # for the Goddard notwithstanding). But the Springfield and Challenger being the class ships of the TNG era fleet? Aren't you just stretching credibility a bit? These TUC ships were in service in 2293, and were presumably first built even earlier. So you're saying that ships from the Galaxy class family were in service in Kirk's time?
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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Yeh I'm firmly with Dukhat on the Springfield, Challenger, Whorfin, and Korolev issue. These are definitely TNG era ships, or at least early-to-mid 24th century ships. On many occasions we see ships who have same-named predecessors, this is just another example. These were not Kirk era originals.
Plus, some of these ships have existing models, and they suggest they are of the Galaxy Class family (Springfield and Challenger).
Monkey: yeh I was aware of the Saladin/Ptolemy ships and so forth, just not that they were shown on screen/okudagram in an episode/movie. Thanks for the info on this.
Also I knew of the Sydney Class ship called Nash, just not the actual proof that it was. I know of the ship seen upside down in DS9, but I hadn't seen that model pic before, which surprised me a lot. Cheers
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
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MMoM: Thank you for looking at my information. Hopefully, other sites will add that info to their lists. And it's good to see that I'm officially a Marshall again, after being demoted sooooo long ago!
Can Mojo answer any questions regarding the ships in "A Time to Stand?" Maybe we could get a few things cleared up.
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I figured you'd suffered enough, and deserved to be reinstated.
The "A Time to Stand" ships were all physical models, IIRC, so Foundation Imaging wouldn't have been involved with them, and Mojo probably wouldn't know anything. Okuda, on the other hand, might. If we can ever get him to spill his guts about it...
-MMoM
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"...I say there's no reason for crying "The first five letters of that word are cut off! It can't be canon!".
But that's not the case. The names don't appear on the displays at all, partially or in any other form. They are completely missing, w/o even the smallest piece visible.
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At least PART of the lettering is there. You're absolutely right that some of it is cut off, though. I'm not disputing that. BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. We *know* what was there, and it's just being waaaaaaaaaaay too anal to say it "doesn't count."
IMHO, of course. To each his own... -MMoM
[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Take it with a grain of salt.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) Here are links to the pages used for the displays:![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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