posted
Not that I recall, no. However, I think that Picard said it a time or two in TNG. He never added that "D" on the end when he said it, tho.
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Did anyone ever say "This is the starship USS Enterprise"? Or "Federation starship USS Enterprise"?
What about the decals of the Enterprise and the Reliant?
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Pike (and Kirk) also said on at least two occasions "This is the United Space Ship Enterprise".
One question. There are three standard hailings for our intrepid crews:
"This is the Federation Starship Enterprise."
"This is blah blah blah of the USS Enterprise."
"This is the starship Enterprise".
Did anyone ever say "This is the starship USS Enterprise"? Or "Federation starship USS Enterprise"?
In that case I would suggest there are two options:
1) United Federation of Planets Starfleet Ship 2) United Federation of Planets Star Ship
Option 1 has the advantage of being logical and true - this is what USS means - as non-Starfleet Federation ships would be covered by Option 2 (surely someone must have called a civilian ship a "starship" at some point). Option 2 has the advantage of including the "this is the Starship X" and "this is the Federation Starship X" greetings as simple variations on which words are included.
However, I would say the deciding factor is the whole "Starship" issue. When this system started, not all SF ships were Starships (or Starship Class). The Grissom for instance, is a "Scout Class", and still has USS, which would suggest that USS doesn't include the word "Starship".
Therefore I would go for Option 1.
There are two options for Kirk/Pike's strange usage of USS: 1) they are abreviating it in an odd way 2) they don't know what it stands for and are making it up as they go along
Due to the fact that they use several different versions of it, I would go for Option 2.
This doesn't really answer your question as such, but I have looked through Spike's starship dialogue page, and starships are always referred to as either: 1) USS Name 2) the USS Name 2) the starship Name 3) the Name No other variations appear to exist.
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Did anyone ever say "This is the starship USS Enterprise"? Or "Federation starship USS Enterprise"?
What about the decals of the Enterprise and the Reliant?
Well, yeah. However, I believe we're talking about spoken lines, not what appears on the hull of the ships.
On a semi-related note, there is NO "U.S.S." in front of Enterprise on the TV show of the same name, if you'll notice.
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I'll have to post again in a small while after I've finished something up...but for now, here's a DVD cap of the phaser display from the article, taken from "The Trouble With Tribbles." Can anyone tell if it was also in "Space Seed," or did Jein just confuse the episode names?
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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posted
About the HMS Scout, there was also an HMS Dreadnought. All ships of the basic configuation (a cruiser with lots of extra guns) have since been called dreadnoughts.
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posted
There's been a huge discussion going about the meaning of the term Starship. I'm inclined to say it refers generically to Starfleet warp-capable vessels rather than a USS Starship. (I'm of the opinion that Runabout Class refers to a type of small freight-carrying type of vessel, and although we don't know of any other Runabout types, we also don't know they do not exist)
One reference that I haven't seen posted here yet is from TNG's "Peak Performance". The Ferengi says:
"Enterprise targeted, leader! Leader, a Federation ship is approaching...it's a starship!"
To me this suggests that the Ferengi weren't concerned that a Federation freighter or colony vessel or whatever was showing up, but when it was determined it was a Starship (I read: Starfleet vessel), then the Ferengi decided they were no match and high-tailed it out of there.
posted
I still haven't got a substantial enough amount of time this evening to type up a full post with responses to the numerous arguments that are going on here. I hope to do this tommorow. But for now, here's a couple quick things:
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: That one sketch where he explains the 1701 does give the impression he tried to make up a system for it.
Incidentally, that sketch is for the refit Enterprise of Phase II. I believe the book it appears in tries to pass it off as a TOS sketch, or has misleading captioning, but look at it. It is clearly one of his sketches for Phase II, with the redesigned pylons, nacelles, and so on. He even refers to the registry NCC-1701A, suggesting that "A" represents the refit version of the first ship of the seventeenth class, an idea later abandoned for TMP and quasi-resurrected for TVH.
Jonah claims the system was in place during TOS, but I have never seen any evidence for that. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that all I've seen is the Phase II sketch. If that's the case, there was no system in TOS, but Jeffries briefly tried to retrofit one into the registry during the '70s. Any reverse extrapolation back to TOS is wishful thinking, unless there's some hidden cache of unseen drawings or never-reported Jeffries interviews. The USS Constellation didn't screw up some preexisting system: there was no system until Phase II, and that was abandoned.
Incorrect. This sketch whcich appears in the TOS Sketchbook is indeed a TOS pre-production drawing from when Jefferies was still refining the exterior design of the ship.
U.S.S. stands for United Space Ship, not United Star Ship. This was spoken explicitly by Pike in "The Cage," right from the beginning. Kirk once also used United Star Ship, but this was more in reference specifically to the Enterprise, rather than to what the prefix stood for. (This is how the Grissom could be both a scout and have a U.S.S. prefix.)
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix:
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Who said Grissom was a "scout-class"?
Kirk, in TSFS.
Chekov: I'd swear something was there sir, but I might have imagined it.
Kirk: What did you see, Chekov?
Chekov: For an instant... A scout class vessel.
Kirk: Could be Grissom. Patch in the hailing frequency. U.S.S. Grissom, this is Enterprise calling. Come in, please.
I don't think he meant Grissom...at least, I never interpreted it that way.
Sulu later on mentioned a KBoP as having a crew of "12 officers & men"...& given that the KBoP had been shown to cloak around there, I always figured the line referred to that since Grissom was long gone by then. The ship shows on sensors at the same time that the Klingons detect Enterprise. The Klingons cloak instantly, & Chekov says that "for an instant" he saw "a scout-class vessel."
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
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posted
The implication is indeed that the Grissom is a "Scout-class" vessel (in the same sense that the Danube is a "Runabout-class" vessel) as is the BoP. It's a size/power classification, most likely. Since Franz Joseph, we think of the Connie as a "Heavy Cruiser-class" ship, but in TOS terms that translated as "Starship-class."
There was most definitely never a U.S.S. Starship. That's ridiculous. As has been already stated by several people.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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posted
Then again, there is no evidence that there wasn't a U.S.S. Starship. At the present, this is unresolved and is not relevant to the discussion.
The known families of ships include the destroyer, the scout, the tug, the starship, the dreadnought,and the runabout classes. There may be additional families of ships. Within each of these families, there are individual classes.
It would seem by the 2360's Starfleet simplified matters by grouping several families of ships into one mega-family, the Starship Class. There is another mega-family for which we have evidence of and this is the Runabout Class. I think there could be other mega-families.
posted
I'd say that ST3 is good evidence that the Grissom *wasn't* a scout-class vessel. Chekov says he sees a scout. Kirk's response is one of *doubt* and *concern*!
I got the impression that the Grissom could in certain special conditions be *mistaken* for a scout class vessel, which Kirk thought might have happened. But he said that only to placate the crew - secretly, he was concerned that if there really was a scout class vessel out there, then he was leading his friends into some sort of unscheduled trouble.
As for "USS", I'm sure Starfleet is full of people who *don't really know* what the thing means. The Fleet must have its share of people who'd misplace Deneva on the stellar charts, or think that Maazarites are the guys with lots of fur, and still are competent enough to serve as top officers. The deeper meaning of "USS" isn't likely to be a top topic to be taught in any of the Academy lectures, really.
And I'm quite convinced that "starships" are a special breed among spacegoing vessels in the eyes of some, even if this is an erroneous belief and misuse of terminology on their part. Nobody would dare correct a Zakdorn strategy guru when he speaks of "star cruisers", either.
As for the whole "class" thing, I'm sure it, too, means several things in several contexts. Say,
1) Mission class. Ships are classified according to what they do, and some are known as "scout class" or "explorer class" vessels. "Starship class" could be a mission class.
2) Proper name class. Ships are classified according to the name of the first ship of the design subfamily, with certain rare exceptions. "Starship class" could be a proper name class, too.
3) Activation class. Ships are classified according to their status in a scheme of crisis activation, extending from frontline active service ships of class I to auxiliaries like class IV stardrive vessels, class VI supply ships or class VII impulse drive vessels that are only drafted in situations of extreme need.
posted
Mim: Not since FJ. Read "The Making of Star Trek" again. Gene and Matt both consider(ed) 'Starship' to be synonymous with 'Heavy Cruiser'.
Thus, I have no problem applying the "Starship class" monicker to vessels of other design classes (that is, at the time of TOS, you could have the Constitution Starship class and the Baton Rouge Starship class serving side-by-side).
The fact that Kirk is unsure of applying the "Scout class" designation to the Grissom does not refute the validity of the term, else why would 1) Chekov use it, or 2) Kirk respond to it with anything other than "What the hell are you talking about, Pavel?"...
Since later source material leads us to the conclusion that Scouts are armed reconnaisance vessels (Hermes, Talon, and possibly Intrepid classes, et al), while the Oberths are Surveyors -- smaller and unarmed (or lightly armed later on, as with the Novas). If Kirk knew the Grissom was a Surveyor, but Chekov spotted something of comparable size (ish), but with a higher power utilization curve and reported a Scout, would that not cause the good Admiral some consternation...?
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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