posted
I'm moving this out of the latest 359 thread. This is my theorhetical timeline of events for the Galaxy class starships seen through the TNG era. It covers MOST bases, methinks, but it remains to be seen how acceptable the assumptions are. Lots of this stuff is scattered around the forum, but it makes sense to bring it all together here. Let's see if it stands the test... And if I blew and hour of time in my office instead of doing work for a good end.
Assumptions:
-Starfleet wanted six GCS to begin with, plus six for later. -Starfleet assigns reg numbers to starship superstructures in chronological order. -Challenger, NCC-71099 was NOT NECESSARILY of the original six. As the timeline below shows, it COULD be, or it COULD be a test article frame related to the GCS development project. -The first six GCS that were completed were Galaxy, Yamato, Enterprise-D, Odyssey, Venture and (for argument's sake) Trinculo.
Timeline:
A. Starfleet begins construction of twelve sets of frames that can be finished into GCS. The first one begins construction as Galaxy 70637, but the second one, while assigned an NCC number 71099, is not. This can be due to structural improvements or changes that can make the frame lighter, more efficient, or whatever. The analogy drawn is how the space shuttle Challenger test frame was completed as a shuttle because it was lighter - and the Challenger number was OV-99, instead of the completed shuttles' OV-10X. Read about this here. Alternatively, the 71099 could have simply been a framing test article from the beginning.
B. The 71099 GCS frame is completed, but put into storage as one of the backups, and Galaxy is completed as planned. The first of the newer frames will be compelted as Yamato 71805, the second ship off out of dock. Enterprise-D, Odyssey 71832, Venture 71854, and (for argument's sake) Trinculo 71867 round out the original six. The 71099 frame plus five others are placed into storage.
C. Yamato is destroyed. After an investigation concludes that this is not due to structural failure as Captain Varley suspected in said episode, Starfleet decides to build a replacement for the ship and keep the total GCS fleet at six - much like how the shuttle Endeavor was built to replace Challenger and keep the shuttle fleet at four. At this point, at least one GCS is still under construction at Utopia Planitia. The frame taken out of storage could have been 71099 and eventually completed as Challenger, or not; it really doesn't matter.
D. Less than two years later, the Battle of Wolf 359 occurs. Exactly one GCS is present; this could be Trinculo 71867, or alternatively one of the newer frames used instead of 71099. Either way, the ship is either mostly completed or just completed. This would have been supported by the cancelled "Unseen Frontier" book, which would have featured a mostly-finished GCS that was ushered out of spacedock. Model for said ship would likely have been based off of Foundation's own GCS lightwave model, and bits and pieces of the incomplete GCS frame seen in VOY "Relativity".
D2. Not that it matters to the timeline, but based on new evidence Admiral Hanson was aboard this GCS and was lost along with it. Hanson commanded the battle from this ship's battle bridge, which obstensibly matches he one installed on the Enterprise-D at the time.
E. In order to recuperate losses and shore up the fleet, Starfleet orders at least one, and probably the remainder of the GCS frames to be completed. This is supported by at least two GCS being seen at UP in "Realtivity" (only one seemed to be in a state of construction, though that doesn't necessarily mean anything). By this time, whatever it was that caused the 71099 frame to be placed into storage instead of completed had been resolved, or decided to be accepted regardless. Alternatively, 71099 may never have been part of the twelve frames, and was sitting at Qualor II or something until it was decided to complete it for this purpose, or as a Dominion War "Sternbach GCS", or what have you.
F. The remainder of the frames, with or without 71099, are completed. At some point, Starfleet probably requests additional GCS be constructed for whatever reason. Frames are completed as necessary, and completed as required for the Dominion War or whatver purpose. Challenger 71099 is ONLY seen as an alternate future in VOY "Timeless", but there's no reason to suppose that temporal machinations would invalidate this, as the reg number is generally accepted to predate VOY's beginning - much in the same way most fans accept that Pasteur 58925 was running around at least through the run of TNG.
posted
Well, as long as you're condensing all this into one thread, where is that evidence about Admiral Hanson you mentioned? I haven't been following the latest W359 debates.
How do the two Galaxy variants (darknecks and 'Ventures') figure into this story? Just minor variatons of individual spaceframes?
posted
Look at page 7 of the latest thread (assuming you have it set to 15 replies/page). We've got new visual evidence that Hanson was sitting on the E-D's battle bridge set. The script also said he was on a GCS throughout the episode, so at least that is the INTENT of where he was supposed to be.
Darknecks and Ventures would likely fall into the category of minor variations, individual refits, or what-have-yous. With the exception of the AGT Enterprise, no GCS has demonstrated SERIOUS structural modification beyond strapping phaser banks to the top of nacelles or turnign on the saucer impulse engines, which IMO is not a major structural variation given the ease with which stuff was changed around on other ships, like Voyager, Defiant or even the NX-01 Enterprise.
posted
This would have to be sheer speculation, but I wonder how well Hanson's GCS performed at Wolf 359 (assuming you accept that theory, which I do). Combined with the Enterprise-D's exceptional survivability in the crisis (which some may write off simply to "hero of the show" status, but should still be considered), Starfleet might have decided as early as just after BOBW to start constructing all the remaining GCS frames, and possibly even start building new ones as well.
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posted
If it came down to raw firepower, pretty poorly. But that's probably something for the other thread... Ditto for the "one that survived" debate. Talk about that over there!
quote:Originally posted by Styrofoaman: There was one ship that survived Wolf359... What class was that again? (Cant. Think. Too. Many. Meetings.)
Depends on whom you ask. Officially it was the Nebula-class Endeavour that survived, but since we've discovered that the Ahwahnee (Cheyenne-class) was present in the blockade fleet in "Redemption" it would appear that it was actually that ship which survived, especially since it was never explicitly stated that the Endeavour was even *at* Wolf 359.
Of course, if Hanson's 40-starhsip figure (see below) is not taken as precise, which it may or may not be, then it's possible that more than one ship survived.
code:
HANSON Your engagements gave us valuable time. We've mobilized a fleet of forty starships at Wolf 359 and that's just for starters... the Klingons are sending warships... Hell, we've even thought about opening communications with the Romulans...
-MMoM
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posted
It is possible that some ships were effectively destroyed (systems destroyed, crew dead, etc) but were intact enough to be extensively repaired.
This could be what happened to the Ahwahnee.
Also, Hanson's figure sounds exact to me. After all, he would know exactly how many ships were there, and there would be no reason to say "forty" if it was really forty one or thirty nine.
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posted
Well, I'm also convinced that the Ambassador-class USS Excalibur was one of the ships at Wolf 359, based on "Survival Instinct" where we met that one woman who'd been assimilated. Although the ship's not explicitly mentioned as being at the battle, the timing fits in just about right. And since the Excalibur had been undergoing major repairs that had seen her whole crew reassigned before "Redemption," I think that its presence there would be reasonable.
Regardless, I would also point out that there were many battleships destroyed at Pearl Harbor, but most of them were raised and even returned to service. Of the 8 battleships that came under attack, six of them would later participate in the invasions of various Japanese-held islands later in the war, mainly in support of the amphibious landings for coastal bombardment.
Therefore, I find it very likely that at least some ships at Wolf 359 were salvaged and returned to service. Take the Excelsior-class Melbourne, for instance. Assuming the Borg didn't vaporize it after it passed off-screen, the damage to the ship would've been only a little worse than that sustained by the Enterprise-E in "Nemesis." Plenty of the rest of the wrecked ships seen in BOBW (in the foreground, those models that were given battle damage) could've probably been restored as well.
For all we know, Hanson's GCS could've been salvaged too... although personally, I'm not exactly fond of that idea. The impact of losing a GCS at the battle would be in line with what we've known about the battle. Although, that would mean that FOUR of the original GCS's were destroyed, then! (Unless the GCS was the Yamato's replacement, which IMO is unlikely since there's only two years time between the Y's destruction and the battle.)
(Hmm... perhaps, if the writers had had another major Borg attack later in the series -- not that I'm advocating that idea -- they could've had Hanson of Borg leading the charge that time around... )
UPDATE: Okay, I decided to do a little research on the battleships at Pearl Harbor. According to the Navy website,
quote:American technological skill raised and repaired all but three of the ships sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor (the USS Arizona (BB-39) considered too badly damaged to be salvaged, the USS Oklahoma (BB-37) raised and considered too old to be worth repairing, and the obsolete USS Utah (AG-16) considered not worth the effort).
Now, depending on the situation and the nature of the damage incurred, it might not be precisely the same situation for all of the ships at Wolf 359. But I see no reason why the Ahwahnee, the Endeavour, the Excalibur, and probably a few others were salvaged and returned to service.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
I prefer to think that the Endeavour was the only ship to escape that battle intact and under it's own power. For starters it would explain who whisked away all those escape pods before the Enterprise turned up (Nebulas have a nice big shuttle bay.) Something the Ahwahnee couldn't have done since we saw it plain as day on the view screen and it was quite inert.
quote:DATA (checking) There are no active subspace fields... Negligible power readings...
RIKER Lifesigns?
DATA Negative, sir.
However, from what we've seen of the Ahwahnee model, it seams as though it was given little if any battle damage, so I can easily see it being refitted and re-crewed in time for the blockade. As has been suggested, the same could be true for some of the other derelicts.
RE: the comparison to Pearl Harbour.
quote: RIKER Lifesigns?
DATA Negative, sir.
WORF Visual contact.
RIKER On screen.
37 ANGLE - VIEWSCREEN (OPTICAL)
and the Bridge crew reacts with horror as they see the wreckage of the Starfleet armada... it is like Pearl Harbor. Passing by one dead ship after another...
38 TWO SHOT - RIKER AND SHELBY
as she recognizes and calls out the names... and slow push to Riker...
SHELBY The Chekhov... The Kyushu... The Melbourne...
On Riker's face...
39 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)
as it passes through the cemetery of dead ships...
I disagree with the Excalibur thing. The Bajoran officer that was assimilated was in Engineering during the night shift, and from the way she told the story it didn't seem that they were about to go headlong into a battle! I'm of the opinion that it was simply during a Borg surprise attack that Excalibur barely managed to get away from. Endeavour too, for that matter. I'm a strong believer that Starfleet has had other Borg encounters than just what we've seen on screen - adn that Starfleet people other than our heroes can live to tell the tale. As I've said before, we gotta give 'em a little credit!
Regarding the number of ships, they probably could have salvaged a few... If Klingon warships did in fact arrive in time and thus bump the total number present to more than 40, then that would make a little more sense.
posted
Here's my take: The USS Trinculo 71867 started as a second Galaxy testbed and was used to work out many of the kinks that cropped up during the initial two years of the class' service. Just like modern aircraft, the GCS used between two to three testbed starships at various stages of development with the completed testbed recieving a name and registry number (as well as the honor of the class name). Sometime between the commision of the GCS and BOBW, the Trinculo was completed enough to recieve a registry but not pressed into service pending the finishing of living quarters and amenities.
The Borg crisis called for any available starship and the Triculo was launched- sans captain, saucer or experienced crew- to the Wolf sector where Hanson took command. While this is total speculation, it does explain why Hanson transferred flagships and why he was on a GCS battlebridge. To push things farther, the Trinculo's (mostly completed) saucer could have been mated to a mostly completed engineering section to quick build the USS Challenger. Desperate times called for desperate measures after W359, dontcha now.
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posted
Why are we using the Trinculo as the hypothetical Wolf 359 Galaxy? If this ship appeared at all, it was in the DS9 war arc. Besides, wasn't Mojo planning to use a half-built, nameless GCS at Wolf 359 in Unseen Frontier?
As to the term destroyed, doesn't it have the connotation of being a permanent condition? If a ship is rebuilt later, you don't really say that it was "destroyed and rebuilt" but rather something like "heavily damaged and rebuilt" or even "nearly destroyed and rebuilt." It just doesn't seem to me like something somebody would say...
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posted
What everyone else said and that didn't Admiral Satie say 39 ships were destroyed of the 40 sent in. Since we know that and the same Ahwahnee was mentioned as in "in service" later, she's the one that survived and not Endeavour. I'm of the opinion that Hanson's BB was really the bridge of a non GCS, possibly the Melbourne herself.
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