quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Y'know, that's a very good question. After all, the same problem would've applied to ships like the Defiant after the Breen attack on Chin'toka, assuming that the bad guys hadn't gone torpedo-happy at the end.
"Disabled"? "Deactivated"? "Crippled"? (That one implies that it's still active, though.) "Inoperative"? "Inactive"?
I think that we should just call those ships "broken." And keep those Pakled references to yourself, okay
FUBAR
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I agree, Klingons running from a battle, even a hopeless one seams somewhat dishonourable.
Of course we don't know if any Klingons actually made it to Wolf 359 although given Hanson's confidence in their arrival and his awareness of when the Cube will arrive seams to indicate they did. That plus the brief footage seen in (VOY "Unity"), although that wasn't necessarily supposed to be of Wolf 359, it's a fair assumption.
Regarding how many ships there were, Hanson clearly said "forty Starships", not "about forty Starships" or " just over forty Starships". So we can be assured that only one ship "walked" away from that battle and for no better reason than my liking the way it fits, I presume that ship to be the Endeavour. Given that Admiral Satie was in inquisitor mode it's believable that she would play up the devastation of the battle as much as possible. So while I believe that some of those 39 were adrift, deserted, dead yet salvageable (after about a year of refitting) the fact is that at that point in time Starfleet was down 39 Starships, they were effectively dead for the foreseeable future. Also consider that the event's of "Drumhead" took place at least two months before "Redemption" and even at that time, the ships that some of us suppose were at Wolf 359 were still far from ready to resume normal duty.
One more thought; it may seam as though the Ahwahnee suffered little of no superficial damage, it's entirely possible that the Borg literally gutted the interior. For all we know that could have transported off the ship every last component of use, the entire ODN and EPS networks, the whole computer core(s), all of the internal power cells, the grav-plating, the bulkheads, the warp core, the antimatter pods, to say nothing of the crew, leaving only an empty shell, filled with useless floating debris.
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This would not be totally consistent... On Saratoga, for which we have concluded that the Borg were assimilating for people or technology, they DESTROYED the ship - presumably because they were done with it. One wonders what movitated them to completely destroy some ships, and merely reduc others to useless hulks. And in the case of the Ahwahnee, mostly intact even if lots of the inside was gone. In their unstoppableness, they seemed in no particular rush to get to Earth, and doubtless left Wolf 359 because they thought they were done there.
posted
Possiblt Loqutos new some of the starship captains and considered their knowledge useful to the collective, thus those ships were assimilated rather than destroyed. The Borg would have wanted to sample a wide range of starship designs so they may have just assimilated one of each class and destroyed the others.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
And I actually believe Sisko being the Prophet's Emissary might have played a part. Although we don't how powerful the Prophets are outside their realm, Sisko himself possibly had some of his Prophet mother in him. Perhaps just enough to steer fate a little.
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I wonder if they ever considered having Jennifer Sisko not killed, but assimilated. . . DS9 might have been a totally different series.
I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, the Ahwahnee was at Wolf 359, the Ahwahnee was seen later on, therefore it wasn't destroyed, therefore it's the survivor. To think that the Endeavour was there because the captain wrote about the Borg later is Enterprisocentric thinking.
If Amisov and the Endeavour had been there, the only things he'd have been able to write would later either be "OK, I admit it, I turned tail and got the hell out of there, but only after half my crew had been assimilated in their beds" or "Fuck, was I lucky! No other way to explain it. God only knows how we survived."
quote:If Amisov and the Endeavour had been there, the only things he'd have been able to write would later either be "OK, I admit it, I turned tail and got the hell out of there, but only after half my crew had been assimilated in their beds or "Fuck, was I lucky! No other way to explain it. God only knows how we survived."
Uh... no. If whatever fleet remnants were left after the main part of the battle was over realized that it was hopeless, I think that they would certainly form up and try to rescue as many survivors as possible and try to get them the hell away from the battle. And there are two mitigating factors to explain the Endeavour's survival as part of that rescue: (1) the Nebula-class ship was relatively big and probably had the most space available for survivors (barring a GCS, which would've already been destroyed if one was there), and (2) other surviving Starfleet ships would have provided cover fire as the Endeavour escaped with a hangar bay full of escape pods and survivors. (Possibly the other active ships beamed a lot of the crew off before they made the last suicidal run, assuming that was possible under the circumstances.)
In this scenario, the Borg would've been trying to wipe out the last bit of resistance while also assimilating the rest of the survivors in any of the wrecked ships. And when the Endeavour managed to escape into warp, they simply decided not to pursue, either because there were more potential assimilation victims among the remaining wreckage, or because chasing down that one ship would take too long when they were heading straight for Earth first.
Janeway would never have quoted Amasov if he hadn't been a hero against the Borg. So he couldn't have been running away as things were going wrong. And "lucky" implies a lack of situational awareness (even in retrospect) that I would hate to ascribe to any Starfleet captain. The Borg are too thorough in their attacks (Voyager notwithstanding, of course ) to have just ignored the one surviving ship.
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quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: This would not be totally consistent... On Saratoga, for which we have concluded that the Borg were assimilating for people or technology, they DESTROYED the ship - presumably because they were done with it. One wonders what movitated them to completely destroy some ships, and merely reduc others to useless hulks.
We know, and presumably the Borg were aware, that the Saratoga had a five-minute countdown to a warp core breach, which from 'Generations' produces a much larger explosion than the explosion from firing on the Saratoga outright. The Borg were probably just trying to diminish the amount of incidental damage the cube would sustain from the destruction of Saratoga.
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Or they assimilated the Warpcore itself and destroyed the ship with the cutter beam in the process....
Personally, I think the Borg were just in need of a vulcan brain to run their computers and...naaaa! That'd be the dumbest idea ever.
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posted
Maybe the Borg did not see the Saratoga as a worthy vessel to assimilate. It already had the Roosevelt and they just got like an ice cream headache or indigestion.
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*lurch back onto the tracks* I see no reason to assume any Galaxys beyond those explicitly stated to be so were part of the "original six", the second six, or complete newbuilds authorised after the TNG TM's fictional publication date.
The reason for the state of things that Gene came up with was to make them even more rare than the Constitution class had been during TOS. Viable, since they were a lot bigger and more complex. However, that view was extremely shortsighted, as it denied that amongst all this technological progress in the 78 years since TOS, the Federation could have expanded their shipbuilding capacity.
I say it does make sense that Starfleet would only spring for so many, and then wait for the class to prove itself worth the investment before authorising more. I don't know if the class has proven its worth -- what with the Galaxy herself being the only ship of the class I've seen survive a major engagement, let alone what Starfleet would consider "minor" threats (computer virus, single much smaller enemy vessel...).
All that being said, we still only know for sure that the Galaxy, Yamato, and Enterprise were the first three built. The names of the other three are conjectural only. The Challenger may have been part of the initial six ordered, but from the TNG TM it looks like the Utopia Planitia yards only had the capability to build a maximum of three at a time. They might easily have staggered the production order 1-3-5, 2-4-6. It's just as likely hullframe 71099 was one of the ones partially assembled and shipped off for storage. Impossible to say either way. Same for the Trinculo and Venture. And we've no evidence that the Magellan and/or Sarek from "Sacrifice of Angels" were Galaxys. There were two Galaxys featured prominently in VFX shots around the time of that line of dialogue, but that is merely suggestive, nothing more.
Lastly, given that by the time of "Favor the Bold", we had lost four Galaxys (if you give credence to the Wolf 359 Galaxy, which I do), and I can count nine or ten in the fleet from those two episodes, I think it likely Starfleet's long since expanded construction of the class beyond the initial dozen.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
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posted
So, nine or ten is the highest Galaxy count in those overcrowded DS9 fleets? That would indeed strongly suggest there are more than the original 12. Or some Admiral thought it a good idea to put all of them in one fleet...
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I don't think anyone is disputing this - my original post was to suppose what became of the first twelve frames, which itself is at best a nigh-canon fact in the first place.
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I know. I'm saying we can't know -- based on what we've seen so far. We know the first three, of which two have been destroyed. We know the Challenger is one of the first dozen, completed either shortly after the first three or as part of teh second six, and that unless something is profoundly different due to the Delta Flyernot arriving home Voyager-less a few years back, it's still active. The Trinculo, Odyssey, and Venture are very likely to be part of the first dozen, based on their registries (don't start), and the nameless Galaxy from BoBW pretty much would have to be, also.
So...
All we can say for sure is: �We know the likely names of seven of the twelve. �Probable that four of the twelve have been destroyed, if not more.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) to have just ignored the one surviving ship.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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