posted
Well, if the MIranda had proven itself easier to produce and modify into mission-specific roles it could have easily replaced any Connie that required an extensive refit to continue operations.
We never heard how many Connies were actually refit: it's concievable that only a few were given the treatment the Enterprise (and presumably the Yorktown) had and the rest were never modified before retirment.
Why spend a year refitting an antiquanted starship when you can build a new Miranda (or possibly even an Excelsior) in the same timeframe that will serve far longer? Also consider that the other major powers would be producing starships of Excelsior quality and firepower to maintain a balance of power and the connie is severely lacking by comparison.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
I think we're getting too hung up on the idea that because we never see any TNG-era Connies, that there aren't any. Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence (or are we also going to assume that there are no more Ambassadors in service because the model was broken?).
quote: And, of course, there are a few years between STVI and Generations.
And the evidence for this is? All the Trek literature I've seen puts both movies in the same year.
-------------------- The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits.
Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
..both movies in the same year? ...the fuck!?1
That would mean the Excelsior class was refit a SECOND time after only three years in service.
That's just silly.
If it's all supposed to happen in the same year, when did Kirk meet and live with Antonia?
It also means Sulu's daughter was born prior to TMP. Sulu must havbe been one crappy father, shipping off with a newborn back home.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
"If it's all supposed to happen in the same year, when did Kirk meet and live with Antonia?"
Between TMP and TWoK.
The Encyclopedia does claim that TUC and Generations both happened in 2293. It also claims that Sulu's daughter was born the same year as TMP, but that's based on numbers that can be fiddled with to make her born after that.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Was there 20-25 years between TMP and STVI? That doesnt sound right.
I have to think that at least the amount of time between the release of STVI and Generations had passed.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Dating the 23rd century precisely is tricky. Only a few dates can be nailed down exactly.
Generations has that '78 years later' caption which, coupled with the TNG stardate, places the Ent-B launch in 2293.
Voyager placed the end of the five year mission in 2270. (Thus showing the Chronology/Encyclopedia dates to be slightly off.) This then places TMP in 2272 or 2273.
ST II must be after 2283 (Romulan Ale date). But precise dating for II, III, IV and V isn't possible.
DS9 places The Trouble with Tribbles (just over half way through TOS season 2) 105 years, 1 month and 12 days before the present of Trials and Tribble-ations. But not present stardate is given for that episode. However the closest episodes either side with stardates show that this is early in 2273 so the TOS portion is early 2268 (or maybe just, late 2267). That places the start of season one the later half of 2266.
Note that combining this with the Voyager date for the end of the mission makes the three years of TOS the middle three years of the five year mission.
Star Trek VI is roughly dateable by McCoy's 27 years line. Assuming he joined the Enterprise between Where no man has gone before and the start of season one proper and that is roughly 2266 then that places ST VI in 2293.
However, ST VI could be a bit earlier. If we assume that Where no man has gone before takes place before the five year mission (different uniforms, moderate refit to the ship, no opening voiceover mentioning the five year mission) then McCoy could have joined the crew earlier than 2266. Also in ST VI McCoy does say "27 years as Ship's Surgeon and later as Chief Medical Officer" (or at least he does in the version of the script I've just checked). So maybe he was on board during Where no man... but wasn't yet CMO.
So there's wriggle room in the dating of ST VI but 2291-2293 is the possible range.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
How can ST VI and Generations be in the same year?
Didn't one of the reporters on the Ent-B bridge ask Kirk how he felt about this being "the first Enterprise in five years without James T. Kirk at the helm"?
-------------------- Lister: Don't give me the "Star Trek" crap! It's too early in the morning. - Red Dwarf "The Last Day"
Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
Nope, just "this is the first starship Enterprise in thirty years without James T Kirk in command", or something to that effect.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Didn't they do that with the Soyuz? I know it's a sore point to bring up but Geordi did say something along the lines that they decomissioned the class. I think the best way to explain how this would happen would be that the vessels would:
1) no longer be built
2) no spares specific to this class would be produced [So if it had a unique part, it would have to go on without it]
3) no extraordinary means would be taken to repair damaged vessels
4) and the vessel would be taken out of active duty during the next upgrade cycle [which is something between 5 and 10 years on most classes (note: upgrade, not refit)].
Does that make more sense?
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
posted
For the retirement of Class thing, I'd assume they've give a retirement date and then the individual ships would be decommissioned one by one when necessary, not "Stop what you're doing and come home now".
Trek IV can be dated both by the producer's intent that the crew travelled back exactly 300 years, so the movie events took place in summer 1986 and the crew had come from summer 2286. This date is corroborated by the '78 years later' line mentioned so often when TNG first started which is itself back-dated from Data's line in "The Neutral Zone" that the year then is 2364.
Trek VI and the launching of Enterprise-B can occur in the same year. They may still be 7 or 8 months apart. It doesn't mean it was the very next day after Trek VI.
posted
I never realised that Generations and STVI occured in the same year. Still, the point remains. There's possibly 11-odd months between them. Plenty of time for the Ent-A to get destroyed, and some bright spark at HQ to say "Hey, that new Excelsior that's due to launch at the end of the year...why don't we name it 'Enterprise'? We'll have a big conference, invite Kirk and whoever else we can get of his old crew...it'll inspire people to join up, and stuff. Everyone loves an Enterprise!"
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Why spend a year refitting an antiquanted starship when you can build a new Miranda (or possibly even an Excelsior) in the same timeframe that will serve far longer?
Because it almost certainly takes far longer than a year to build a Miranda or an Excelsior. Remember how long the Enterprise-D supposedly took?
quote:Also consider that the other major powers would be producing starships of Excelsior quality and firepower to maintain a balance of power and the connie is severely lacking by comparison.
But, er, it's not that easy. If it was, every Starfleet ship during TNG would have been a Galaxy. Every Klingon ship in DS9 would have been a Vor'cha. Every Dominion ship would have been the bloody big one.
Besides, a ship does more than simply shoot at the enemy. Is Starfleet going to throw away a whole load of useful ships simply because they look a bit old? I can see them regulating them to smaller duties, and decommissioning them on an individual basis (like Sonnie says above), but an entire class all at once? Daft. Besides, what's going to scare a Klingon ship more? A single Excelsior, or 5 refit-Connies?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Besides, a ship does more than simply shoot at the enemy. Is Starfleet going to throw away a whole load of useful ships simply because they look a bit old? I can see them regulating them to smaller duties, and decommissioning them on an individual basis (like Sonnie says above), but an entire class all at once? Daft. Besides, what's going to scare a Klingon ship more? A single Excelsior, or 5 refit-Connies?
See, I think this is an arguement in favor of the theory that the Polaris-Class is retrofitted Constitutions. Let's "theorize" that Starfleet planned on phasing out the Constitution-Fleet and replacing it with Excelsiors. Well, the need arises for a relatively small ship with a small crew for interdiction, or patrol, or what have you. So some bright guy at Starship R&D suggests a rather rapid refitting of the Connie-Class starships into the new Polaris-Class. Saves Starfleet time in designing a new ship - now all they have to do is some interior re-decorating.
quote:Why spend a year refitting an antiquanted starship when you can build a new Miranda (or possibly even an Excelsior) in the same timeframe that will serve far longer?
Jason, I thought you were in FAVOR of the theory that the Polaris-Class were retrofitted Connies?
Speaking of Connies ...
In that god-awful 6th season Red Squad episode, I think Nog makes a reference to a training ship which hasn't left the Sol System in like sixty or seventy years ... the USS Republic. This might be a stretch, but isn't it possible this ship might be *the* Republic from TOS? Heck, maybe there were two Connies used for training missions for Starfleet Academy, and one of those got sent to Wolf 359 (solving that mystery ).
posted
Didn't Ron Moore state that he thought that the Republic was indeed the old Constitution-class ship?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
The Republic reference has been a point of contention ever since the episode aired. I seem to recall that someone official (the writer?) claimed that it was, in fact, intended to be the TOS ship.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Why spend a year refitting an antiquanted starship when you can build a new Miranda (or possibly even an Excelsior) in the same timeframe that will serve far longer?
Jason, I thought you were in FAVOR of the theory that the Polaris-Class were retrofitted Connies?
I'm neither for or against: I'm just for the possibility.
quote:Because it almost certainly takes far longer than a year to build a Miranda or an Excelsior. Remember how long the Enterprise-D supposedly took?
But the Galaxy wasa new design with millions of tons more mass, ship complexity and some untested systems.
A Miranda (by STVI) could indeed be built in a year: the Fed a HUGE rescouses at it's disposal and the Miranda design was a long proven one with likely dozens (if not hundreds) of ships having already been built. An Excelsior would really have taken a couple of years to build but using the examples of the Galaxy or Sovvie is silly: the complexity is geometrically greater and the ships are ten times larger with far larger crews.
So: I think the initial Polaris starships might indeed have been built from decommisioned Connie Refit parts but if they made a whole class from the designs, they probably unsed only the Connie spaceframe, nacelles, torp launcher and not much else. The interior of the saucer would have to be severely altered to accomidate engineering, the greatly reduced crew size and mabye some small sutttlebay hangar under the saucer like the NX-01.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
).
Printer-friendly view of this topic
