The association between the Cochrane and the registry was made in a casuality report seen in DS9. I think the episode in which it appeared was "In the Pale Moonlight".
For myself, I think the multiple instances of unnamed Excelsior-class starships seen in TNG were NCC-2541. This registry was barely visible on the nacelle of the starship.
And, lastly, I think the Oberth-class starship that visited DS9 in "Emissary" was the Yosemite for it bore the registry of that ship.
For the database, I have been able to deciper most of it.
1. Lt. Cmdr. Wendy Neuss Gamma Trianguli IV 2. Lt. Cmdr. Brannon Braga Sherman's Planet 3. Lt. Cmdr. Rene Echevarria Therbia 4. Lt. J. Lowry Johnson Alpha Cygnus II 5. Lt. Cmdr. Ron Surma Taurus I 6. Lt. Jay Chattaway Regulus Five 7. Cmdr. Jerry Goldsmith illegible 8. Cmdr. Alexander Courage Triacus 9. Lt. Jonathan West Alpha Carinae I
[ July 10, 2014, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: vwuser ]
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quote:Originally posted by vwuser: The association between the Cochrane and the registry was made in a casuality report seen in DS9. I think the episode in which it appeared was "In the Pale Moonlight".
This is not entirely correct: The section with the Cochrane was never visible on screen, neither the name nore the registry. The causality chain for the Biko and the registry NCC-59318 is still intact.
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Go to Memory Alpha. Visit the PWB Tomal page. There is a picture there that shows the name Cochrane and the registry. So, it was shown.
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quote:Originally posted by o2: Based on that fact I have to draw the conclusion that the three ships from 'The Game', 'The Drumhead' and 'Fistful of Datas' are all the 'USS Biko'. I know that there is some background information that the ship from 'The Drumhead' is the 'USS Cochrane', but this is not backed up by the information we have now. I have to disregard the 'Cochrane' as faulty information.
If you're going to use that logic, then every Excelsior that the Ent-D rendezvouses with was either the Hood or the Repulse, even when the dialogue stated that it was a different ship (or conversely, multiple ships have the exact same registry number). I understand your mode of thinking based solely on what we see on screen, but I'm leery of accepting that logic, as I'm more inclined to accept that the model was indeed labeled "Cochrane" even though no photos have surfaced proving it. The Biko was just a case of ill-used stock footage that the TNG-HD guys didn't have the time (or were just apathetic) to change the registry. I'll take new footage over stock footage to prove a point every time.
quote:Originally posted by vwuser: For myself, I think the multiple instances of unnamed Excelsior-class starships seen in TNG were NCC-2541. This registry was barely visible on the nacelle of the starship.
Again this is faulty reasoning, as stock footage of the Repulse, while still having the 2541 registry, was stated in dialogue to be different ships (the Crazy Horse comes immediately to mind).
quote:And, lastly, I think the Oberth-class starship that visited DS9 in "Emissary" was the Yosemite for it bore the registry of that ship.
So do I, but hopefully if at least "Emissary" gets the HD treatment, we'll be able to better tell what that registry reads.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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Can anybody confirm that the picture in the middle from the page PWB Tomal is indeed from one of the DS9 episodes? I recocnize the pics on the left and the right, but on those the Cochrane is not visible. Can somebody name episode and time index for the picture in the middle, please?
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Did they fix the silhouette of the Potemkin in "Second Chances" from Ambassador-class to Excelsior-class?
Dukhat,
I said in my comment "unnamed ships". Over at Memory Alpha, the Oberth-class starship seen in "The Game" is said to be the Cochrane, because that is the registry on the hull. They fall back on the Encyclopedia for the appearance of the Oberth-class ship seen docking with DS9. The Oberth-class starship was modified for "Realm of Fear", being given the registry of NCC-19002. So, it should be the Yosemite, not the Cochrane.
I am saying that for those unnamed Excelsior-class starships, that were seen in TNG, could be considered the same ship with the registry of NCC-2541. I am aware that stock footage was used for the Fearless, the Potemkin, the Repulse, and the Crazy Horse.
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By the way, the Memory Alpha article of the 'Cochrane' is referring to 'In the Pale Moonlight'. TrekCore has this picture, but the 'Cochrane' is not visible there either:
I have to conclude that there is no visible conection of the 'Cochrane' to the registry of the 'Biko'. Furthemore, there is not even a reference to a starship with the name 'Cochrane' in a single episode of Star Trek.
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According to the image description, the Cochrane was mentioned in "The Siege of AR-558". I don't have the episode.
For now, the image is not the best. Maybe if DS9 is released on Blu-Ray, we will have a clearer image of the list. When that time comes, maybe we can discuss the matter further.
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The first version of this display from "In the Pale Moonlight" was reprinted in the DS9 companion, where it's clearly legible.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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But we cannot verify the content on screen.
I doubt that the blu ray release will help us in this case since the focusing was on the actor and not on the report. It will still be fuzzy, even in HD.
But let's think about what would happen if we would have the name and registry visible:
Those episodes from DS9 have been produced/broadcasted years after 'A Fistful of Data's' has been established that the registry of the 'Biko' is NCC-59318 and furthermore that the ships from those two other TNG episode are the 'Biko' as well. We would have to dismiss at least the registry of the Cochrane as wrong since it is contradicting the already available information from TNG.
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quote:Originally posted by o2: Those episodes from DS9 have been produced/broadcasted years after 'A Fistful of Data's' has been established that the registry of the 'Biko' is NCC-59318 and furthermore that the ships from those two other TNG episode are the 'Biko' as well. We would have to dismiss at least the registry of the Cochrane as wrong since it is contradicting the already available information from TNG.
Again, if we go by this logic, then the SS Tsiolkovsky's registry was actually NCC-640 instead of NCC-53911 (in the original SD broadcast), even though the former is the registry of the Copernicus (and the Tsiolkovsky was still labeled as the Copernicus even though the angle of the shots make this impossible to see on screen).
Sometimes it's not necessary to slavishly follow what we see on screen when such instances were due to stock footage reuse. I find it hard to believe that, with the thousands of ships Starfleet has, that the Ent-D would rendezvous with the exact same Excelsior-class ship every time, simply because we can make out the NCC-2544 registry thanks to HD.
Feel free to believe what you want. I'm fine with having an Oberth class ship named the Cochrane with a registry of NCC-59318 (especially since the casualty list backs this up even if we couldn't see it clearly on screen). I'm also fine with the Cochrane being the same ship that ferried Wesley to the Enterprise (even though this conflicts with my above belief about not seeing the same ship every time, but at least this only happens once). I'm also fine with an Oberth class Biko. I'm NOT fine with it having the same registry as the Cochrane thanks to stock footage reuse (if they were going to reuse stock, then they should have used the Lantree instead), but for now I'm content with Okuda's made-up registry in the Encyclopedia for the Biko.
(In all honesty I'm NOT fine with any use of the Grissom model at all in TNG, but that's another story.)
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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There weren't many stock shots of the Miranda class starship. I think an Excelsior class would have been better for the Biko. She has the bulk to be a cargo ship. These ships were being used for milk runs.
The impression I get from the Okudagrams is that Starfleet was a much smaller organization in TNG than it appeared to be in DS9. We have starship mission status charts for a wide range of sectors; the number of ships was less than 20. Many of the ships named in dialog are mentioned in these charts. Rarely, do we see a new ship. This continued into DS9 until the Dominion War when Starfleet experienced an inflation. And, we have seen the Enterprise rendezvous with the Hood on several occasions.
Lastly, the registry that is seen on the nacelles is NCC-2541, not NCC-2544.
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quote:Originally posted by vwuser: There weren't many stock shots of the Miranda class starship. I think an Excelsior class would have been better for the Biko. She has the bulk to be a cargo ship. These ships were being used for milk runs.
The Lantree was described as a supply ship, just like the Biko was. There's no reason not to assume the stock footage couldn't have done the job in a somewhat better capacity (at least by obscuring the registry).
quote:The impression I get from the Okudagrams is that Starfleet was a much smaller organization in TNG than it appeared to be in DS9. We have starship mission status charts for a wide range of sectors; the number of ships was less than 20. Many of the ships named in dialog are mentioned in these charts. Rarely, do we see a new ship. This continued into DS9 until the Dominion War when Starfleet experienced an inflation. And, we have seen the Enterprise rendezvous with the Hood on several occasions.
While it's true what you say about SF seeming to be smaller in TNG, the fact that this isn't borne out later could be considered a retcon. But I'm going with what I saw in DS9.
quote:Lastly, the registry that is seen on the nacelles is NCC-2541, not NCC-2544.
Nope, the registry of the Repulse is NCC-2544.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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NCC-2541 was the original registry of the Hood, the one the model was labeled with for "Encounter At Farpoint" (TNG). So shots that are re-used from that episode (or recomposited from the same elements) would have 2541, while those from "The Child" would have 2544.
BTW, in spite of Okuda's statement quoted on Memory Alpha regarding the Tsiolkovsky's NCC-640 registry being left over from the Copernicus, I'm still inclined to believe that the latter ship's registry is NCC-623 (as previously reported by Okuda in the Encyclopedia, and which he once stated to me to have come from a behind the scenes photo of the model during filming of STIV) and that the model was in fact relabeled for its appearance in "The Naked Now" (TNG) as seems to have been the practice from the beginning. (The Hood establishes a precedent both for this and for the fact that one number might be put on the model while another was used on set dressing.)
It will indeed be interesting to see if the registry is visible in a future transfer of "Emissary" (DS9). The model was relabeled as the Yosemite for "Realm Of Fear" (TNG) as seen from a behind the scenes photo from the DS9 episode and confirmed in the remastered TNG episode, but we don't know if it might have been relabeled after the photo was taken.
Let's remember that there were TWO Oberth-class ships in the episode, and according to the Encyclopedia, the one destroyed in the opening battle sequence was the U.S.S. Bonestell NCC-31600. We can't see this in the episode, nor the names and registries of the other ships apart from the Saratoga and Melbourne, but we know from behind the scenes photos that they were all in fact relabeled with the names and numbers reported for them in the same source. (Query: Do we think the Bonestell was represented by the same filming model or a separate one? It kind of got blown up, and I seem to recall that in the case of the Saratoga's destruction they used a special "stunt" model.)
I've never examined all the instances of the various starship mission assignment lists to confirm that their chronology bears this out, but for whatever it's worth to the conversation, Okuda also once told me that the reason he changed the Trieste's registry from Yosemite to Merced was because of the name Yosemite being used for the ship in "Realm Of Fear," so I suppose that if something so small as that was noticed and "fixed," then it isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility that they'd take the destroyed vessel's signage off the model for its next appearance. (Am I remembering correctly that the Yosemite was destroyed?)
It also occurs to me that we're aware of a few examples which seem to indicate that by this point there was sometimes a practice of relabeling only the surfaces of the models that were thought likely to be seen on camera in a particular episode, whilst leaving old labels elsewhere on them. (I can think of the Yamaguchi/Excalibur and Farragut/Leeds off the top of my head, and it seems to me there was at least one other instance that escapes me at the moment.) Is it possible that some part of the model retained the Cochrane's number even after being relabeled? It seems unlikely, given that between the behind the scenes photo and the remastered episode we can see both sides of the hull and saucer, and they all seem to bear the Yosemite's number. (However, I have personally never seen a high-enough resolution version of the photo to be able to tell for certain what the number on the ventral saucer is. Someone in possession of the original source might speak more definitively.)
Lastly, I will reiterate my previously stated view that it is useless and counterproductive to ignore facts known from behind the scenes sources simply because they cannot be definitely confirmed onscreen, and that it is moreover worse to then draw conclusions from the resultingly incomplete data and impose them where they directly contravene the actual intent. If your inferences can be made only through arbitrarily choosing not to look at all the data, deliberately excluding from consideration the points that go against them, they are bad inferences. That the number NCC-59318 belongs to the Biko is such an inference.
[ July 11, 2014, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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They didn't change the registry of the Excelsior model to NCC-2544. I know the Repulse is NCC-2544, because that is what one of its shuttles says and what the starship mission status says. When I visited "The Child" (HD) on Trekcore, I go to the first page. The nacelles have a four-digit number. The last digit was 1.
The issue with the Lantree stock shot is that it is of the Enterprise coming to the Lantree. The shot in "Fistfuls of Data" required a ship to come to the Enterprise. There were only four classes that did that in the run of the series: the Ambassador, the Constellation, the Excelsior, and the Oberth.
Speaking of changes, in "Brothers", the Ajax was an Excelsior-class starship with the registry of NCC-13554 and the Zhukov was a Rigel-class starship with the registry of NCC-62136. This was changed later.
I have seen the "Emissary". The registry on the ventral saucer is NCC-19002. They appeared to have done a complete registry update on this model for its appearance in "Realm of Fear".
Returning to the HD, am I the only one who is bothered by the shot of the Cardassian ships and the Enterprise in Ensign Ro? I have seen pictures from this episode at Ex-Astris-Scientia. I feel the lighting is wrong. If the right side of the Enterprise is in shadow, shouldn't the Galor class starship's left side be in shadow as well?
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