1) Vertical Ship has no right nacelle. The scene before commercial, the second that scene starts, you can see the right side of the Vertical Ship. The starfield is clearly visible on the right side. No pylon and no nacelle.

2) The Vertical Ship's left nacelle is not connected to the ship. Same scene. Starfield is visible in the space between the left nacelle and the center nacelle/engineering hull. Possibly from bad computer manipulation.

3) New ship, possibly the real Chekov OR the Nebula. In the first scene, as viewed through the viewscreen, where we can see the Rigel to the left and Kyushu in the middle, just before the scene cuts out, in the lower right-hand corner, there is a ship with a DEFINATE Galaxy-style saucer. But here is where it gets tricker. There is an obvious add-on to the back of the saucer, almost similar to a Miranda-style. There is something black located above this. At first, it looked like a nacelle, but the glowing flames around it almost make it look like a pod, like the Nebula has. Nothing is visible below the ship, unfortunatly.

4) The Challenger/Chekov in the final scene. The saucer is definatly a perfect circle, but there is a problem. A small, diamond shape at the back of the saucer is visibly connected to the rest of the body. The diamond shape and the nacelles/engineering hull are extremly bright, brighter then the rest of the saucer. No clue why just a small section of the saucer would be brighter then the rest. Also, the apparant centerline of the engineering hull does not match up with the saucer. This ship appears to be a jumbled mess.

5) Another possible Challenger. Again, final scene (when the Constitution Engineering hull has been removed). Between the left edge of the Enterprise-D's saucer and the apparant wreck of the Rigel Class is a dark ship, hard to see. She has a saucer similar to the Excelsior, and two nacelles positioned above the saucer. It's impossible to make out where the nacelle pylons connect, to an engineering hull or the saucer.

6) Rigel engineering hull may be Galaxy, not Constitution. From looking at the ship as the scene moved (not freeze-frame), the sacuer's curvature at the back seems way too drastic to be a Constitution Engineering hull. It is possible that the saucer may be from the large Enterprise-D kit, and the engineering-hull from the small Enterprise-D kit. Also, the engineering hull would be positioned far forward.

7) Rigel's nacelles are connected to the pylons at the back of the nacelle. Again, this really makes this ship even uglier. The small things on the back of the ship DO appear to be nacelles, not just pieces of pylons.

8) Shelby's calling-off of ship names. "Tolstoy, Kyushu, Melbourne." Tolstoy, the nacelle in the upper left of the screen that moves away after a second. Shelby probably hesitated in stating the ship's name. Kyushu, obvious. Melbourne. Just before the camera goes back to Shelby's face, there is a small cloud of debris comign up in the bottom right corner. Now, this time, Shelby did not hesitate. The time between the scene ending and Shelby saying "Melbourne", there would be enough time for a large chunk of a ship to appear on the viewscreen immediatly behind the oncoming cloud of wreckage. Fortunatly, there is no way in the world that we can tell if the ship behind the cloud is Nebula or Excelsior.

Also, I thought I may have sighted another ship that could be seen through the hole in the neck of the Constitution Class engineering hull in the final scene (pre-commercial), but later turned out to be the Rigel (post-commercial).

Screen-caps of the new ship, anyone?

So can't that make the 'vertical' ship the ship with one nacelle top and bottom? Was that the Chekov?

Now comes the cute part: originally, the scene where Shelby names the wrecks floating past was supposed to go "Melbourne, Kyushu, Chekov". But Chekov sounded too cutesy, so the line was altered in post-production to read "Melborune, Kyushu, Tolstoy"! I asked Okuda if the names were originally intended to correspond to the models visible on the viewscreen at all, but we'll have to wait for an answer. If the answer is yes, then Chekov in fact is on screen right there!

So where does this leave Tolstoy/Rigel? Most probably in the category of "names without corresponding models" (as Okuda indicated in his first post already). And thus we would be best off if we then assigned this name to one of the "models without corresponding names" - e.g. one of the Excelsior study models on the background in that shot.

The matter is still a bit unclear, though. Does the scene feature an identifiable Nebula (if we discount the partially visible ship in the upper right corner, since it more or less has to be the "three-naceller with two nacelles" we see vertically in the exterior pictures)? It would have to, if the original intent was to have Melbourne+Kyushu+Chekov on screen in that scene.

Also, Okuda says there's a four-nacelled albeit slightly damaged Excelsior study model patrolling the airspace of the art department, and he's going to get a picture of it ASAP. So that's probably one mystery finally solved.

Timo Saloniemi

*The "Rigel" wreckage can be seen in "Unification" when the USS Enterprise enters the Qualor 2 salvage yards. The "Rigel" is to the left of the planet, at the top of the screen. (And for those who like obscure ships, the bow of the Orion raider can be seen in the same episode. It is seen with a Miranda, Variant 1.)
*ST: TNG Companion says that there were specially built models for the Challenger, Cheyenne, Freedom, Nebula, New Orleans, Niagara, Rigel, and Springfield Classes. There is also confirmation that the name USS Chekov was changed to USS Tolstoy.
*Some thoughts-if all the new models were built using Galaxy Class parts, then the Freedom would have a Galaxy Class saucer, a Galaxy Class neck, and a Galaxy Class nacelle. This, in my imagination, is a better designed ship. It is unfortunate that the neck is not more visible. And as for the Niagara, maybe the design from the Fact Files should be ignored.
*For those who have a direct line of communications with Mr. Okuda, can you ask him why there is reluctance to have these ship's designs be more public? For many years, the official word has been that there is no design for these ships. However, this whole thread shows that there is a design-however basic-for each of the named ships.
*A question, did the majority of the ship wreckage at Wolf 359 get "transported" to Qualor 2? If so, there may exist a chance to get a better view of the ships.
*One last note-I remember reading the ships at Wolf 359 (the new models) were made into a diorama that was placed in one of the producers offices. The photo of the USS Kyushu hung from the ceiling may have come from this producers' office.

Okuda says there was no general "set photo" session on the ships that he'd know of. Instead, the individual modelmakers may have taken pictures (so bombarding Ed Miarecki or perhaps Greg Jein is our last, best hope here). Okuda himself only took the photos for his slide show, and he said he'd try to see if they still remain. He took the Cheyenne one, and *might* have more than one on her...

Larry Nemecek got the TNG Companion ship list directly from Okuda, and probably mistakenly believed that all the ships there had either been built as models or the names assigned to existing models. As far as Okuda remembers, there was no Challenger or Rigel model (and considering the Chekov/Tolstoy story, it's virtually certain that no separate Rigel model was ever really built).

I'm now 99.975% certain that the former "Rigel" is a Nebula study model, similar to this one. Do we see this ship in the scene where Shelby mentions the Melbourne? Or is it from a significantly earlier or later scene?

Hmm. What I'd need is a "stop-motion movie" where the screencaps from "BoBW" are arranged chronologically,
since I don't have the tape available. Perhaps this should be a feature of the Ex Astris Wolf 359 page?

Brief summary here of ships at Wolf 359, version 1.701-F (NCC either that of the given ship or just typical for variant in question, Model means model built specifically to portray that class)

Class.........NCC.......Model...Status

Constitution..?????.....ST3.....seen well (BoBW)
Apollo........11000.....no?.....(Emissary)
Ambassador....26000.....Jein....seen well (Emissary)
Miranda 3.....31000.....?.......seen well (Emissary)
Springfield...53000.....Miar....pending evaluation (BoBW)
Challenger....57000.....Miar?...??????? (BoBW)
Niagara.......58000.....no?.....(BoBW)
Rigel.........62000.....no......seen only by Shelby (BoBW)
Nebula 2......62000.....Jein....seen well (Emissary)
Nebula 1......64000?....Miar....seen (BoBW)
Excelsior 1...64000.....George..seen (Emissary)
New Orleans...65000.....Miar....seen well (BoBW)
Freedom.......68000.....Jein....seen (BoBW)
Cheyenne......71000.....Miar....not seen? (BoBW)

Models w/o definite names:

Excelsior study 1.....almost-Excelsior, not seen
Excelsior study 2.....flat'n wide, seen (BoBW)
Excelsior study 3.....4-naceller, seen (BoBW)
McQuarrie 1...........longer, not seen
McQuarrie 2...........shorter, seen (BoBW)

(The close-up on a Constitution secondary hull was done on a smallish model used in ST3 in the destruction of the E-nil, according to Okuda)

Feel free to disagree!

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited February 11, 2000).]

The dialogue was "The Tolstoy, the Kyushu, the Melbourne". The glowing Galaxy saucer (Melbourne) was in the scene. It would prefectly match the dialogue if the Tolstoy is the vertical ship, the Kyushu is clear, the Melbourne is the burning saucer.

Chris prepared a page with part of the screencaps: http://www.zahni.com/copernicus/copernicus.htm

BTW, the last picture shows that the Freedom apparently has no Galaxy neck. Maybe it's actually a thin Constitution neck, but I bet it is heavily modified so that we would get a consistent design again.

As for the ship whose top view can be seen in the center of the above scene, it's now the third completely different assumption within three days. Honestly, I have no idea what to believe. I'm currently likely to drop the assumption that it's a Challenger (if the Challenger looks like a Constitution at all). The saucer is convex and not concave as it should be and not flat either. I can also see what seems to be a phaser strip which neither the Excy nor the Constitution should have.

Or then we can say the ship really is the Tolstoy, in which case some other model there must be assigned the name Chekov and the class name Springfield, against the original intentions of Miarecki and Okuda.

If Miarecki has no recollection, and Okuda doesn't come up with anything new, then it's up to us to choose from the two above alternatives.

* * *

On the Freedom neck: There's the familiar kink as the angled leading edge turns vertical to meet the torp deck; and the torp deck shape is also visible. I'm not sure if the neck needs any major modification to create a consistent Galaxy-era ship - if it has Galaxy-style portholes like in the FF pic, then it's okay to me.

On the "ex-Challenger": the only way to find out anything definite would be for Okuda to locate his slide show pictures and show that there really was a ship with Constitution/Constellation properties in the mix. It's doubtful that any better pictures of the strange "Chekov/Tolsty three-naceller" or "Chekov 1+1-naceller" exist anywhere, so those can't be used to rule out alternatives for the "ex-Challenger". But since the slide show Challenger rumor started somewhere, we might get a better pic of USS Buran and go on from there...

Regarding Matt's new ship, I have an image of it somewhere, but it's pretty blurry. I'll see if I can get a better one later.

If Okuda gets us an image of the quad-nacelled ship, I will never say anything bad about him ever again and I will send him a birthday card every year until the end of the century.

The Rigel/potential Nebula is from the first scene, before Shelby reads off the ship names.

The image that pIn'a' Sov posted might be the Apollo saucer, according to some people, but the Making of DS9 book suggests that it's supposed to be the Melbourne's wrecked saucer.

This thread sure is an interesting read.

Class        NCC    Model  Status
Constitution ????   ST3    seen well (BoBW)
Apollo       11000  no?    (Emissary)
Ambassador   26000  Jein   seen well (Emissary)
Miranda 3    31000  ?      seen well (Emissary)
Springfield  53000  Miar.  pending evaluation (BoBW)
Challenger   57000  Miar?  ??????? (BoBW)
Niagara      58000  no?    (BoBW)
Rigel        62000  no     still seen by Shelby  (BoBW)
Nebula 2     62000  Jein   seen well (Emissary)
Nebula 1     64000? Miar.  seen (BoBW)
Excelsior 1  64000  George seen (Emissary)
New Orleans  65000  Miar.  seen well (BoBW)
Freedom      68000  Jein   seen (BoBW)
Cheyenne     71000  Miar.  not seen? (BoBW)

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Canon or FF?
Right to assume Nebula Class

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New Orleans - clear

The 'vertical ship' is the ship at the top right - which may or may not have 3 nacelles - cause the nacelle on the left (our left) you can see stars between the nacelle and the ship.

The burning galaxy-esque nacelle is the Melbourne - the picture from Mirakei's site? with the little nacelles on top.

Oh also - the Freedom neck - it is a Connie refit neck isn't it - with the 'torp-launcher' bulge... and they have supposedly put galaxy-esque windows in it? Is that what makes it look TOS connie in the FF diagram?

Oh, also - this is a very side topic - but do we know if there are any 'usual' ships at Wolf 359? ok we saw an Oberth a Miranda Refit and an Excelsior in "Emissary" - but how come we don't see any 'normal' ships in BOBW? by normal I mean the common models at the time unchanged Miranda, Constellation, Excelsior Galaxy, Oberth and Ambassador - I mean the Ambassador was already battle damaged...

Andrew