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Originally posted by Felix the Kzin:
The re-use of effects shots is just that: re-using shots. It DOES NOT MEAN that the ship "changed shape" or any other ridiculous idea. I suppose you believe the Enterprise-D also "changed shape" in TNG, whenever they switched between shots of the 2ft, 4ft, or 6ft models...

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The Enterprise looked one way in "The Cage," another (quite similar) way in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," and still another way in the rest of the series. There is no real significance in the fact that episodes relied heavily on a set number of stock effects shots. The Enteprise never "really" altered in appearance from moment to moment.

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Okay, we're on the same page here.

My problem is that some others were trying to present the FJ version of the Constitution as another variant of the class. I really don't think that's the case at all.

And I've also thought of a real-world reason for the "appearing" torpedo launchers and phasers in FJ's drawings -- just what would those lines and labels be pointing to, otherwise? Those dots are only there to show the location, not to prove that they were visible features on the actual hulls.

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“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
My problem is that some others were trying to present the FJ version of the Constitution as another variant of the class. I really don't think that's the case at all.

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Well, for the record, I do. Think about it: If there were three different variants in TOS, (which you just stated that you accepted) why couldn't there have been an/other/s before? Why couldn't the original U.S.S. Constitution have looked exactly as depicted in Joseph's drawings? After all, those drawings are the only glimpse we've had of the NCC-1700. Why do you inist that such a variant does not exist? There is no evidence to support that, and in fact there is evidence (the aforementioned computer displays) pointing to the contrary.

You must admit that---despite the fact that SotSF, et al, made up out of thin air several Connie variants that most likely don't exist in the "actual" Trek universe---their basic ideas of a progressive series of alterations to the Constitution design do fit rather nicely with what we've seen on the shows. They also happen to make a great deal of sense and fit with present-day shipbuilding practices. Why all the protest?

-FtK

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The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.

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Originally posted by Felix the Kzin:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
My problem is that some others were trying to present the FJ version of the Constitution as another variant of the class. I really don't think that's the case at all.

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Well, for the record, I do. Think about it: If there were three different variants in TOS, (which you just stated that you accepted) why couldn't there have been an/other/s before? Why couldn't the original U.S.S. Constitution have looked exactly as depicted in Joseph's drawings? After all, those drawings are the only glimpse we've had of the NCC-1700. Why do you inist that such a variant does not exist? There is no evidence to support that, and in fact there is evidence (the aforementioned computer displays) pointing to the contrary.

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First off, once you get past two or three variations of the same class, it starts to get rather ludicrous. Certainly different ships can end up with different specifications, but that doesn't mean that there's still not some consistency.

And, if we were to accept your argument that the computer graphics represent literal canon, that means that there have been a disproportionate number of Admirals and Captains named Gene Roddenberry, Rick Berman, and so on. It means that there was a starship named USS Alka-selzior. It means that a military ship has quotes from Gilligan's Island on panel labels. It means that there is a sports car, Nomad,a duck, and other odd items as part of the crucial equipment outfit of the Enterprise-D.

You don't have to take things so literally!

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You must admit that---despite the fact that SotSF, et al, made up out of thin air several Connie variants that most likely don't exist in the "actual" Trek universe---their basic ideas of a progressive series of alterations to the Constitution design do fit rather nicely with what we've seen on the shows.

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I must? Oh, okay. I guess I must agree, then...

You seem to be talking about two different things here. First is the variations of configurations for the Constitution Class. The second is your proposal that the FJ design become another variant. I have no problem with having a couple of variations on the Constitution Class, as I said above. However, I do not agree that FJ's designs represent yet another configuration. I believe that the discrepancies are simply explained by artist's errors.

Shall we agree to disagree?

The following is a somewhat snarky commentary based on the above arguments. I mean no offense by the sarcastic tone.

Here, I've got a few examples based on your line of reasoning, Felix/Mim...

-- Miranda Class. It's fairly well-known that there are some inaccuracies in the Encyclopedia's depiction of the Miranda. Specifically, the roll bar is far too small, and the support pylons for that bar are also a bit off. Shall we say that there's some variant of the Miranda Class based on the differences between the Encyclopedia illustration and the studio model?

-- How about the DS9:TM? We know that the Centaur had a different design from the "Excelsior Variant" diagram that was shown in that book. That must mean that there's another class of "Excelsior variant" out there that matches the DS9:TM diagram perfectly! Or at the very least, a "Centaur Class, ____ variant" that matches the DS9:TM image.

-- How about the Academy Trainer image in the Encyclopedia? We know that Wesley's ship looked different, but maybe we should argue that some cadets take their pilot's training lessons on Peregrine-class couriers...

Get my point? All of these examples are just as authoritative as the TOS:TM, if not a whole lot more so. And yet we still obviously have to make allowances for errors...

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“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha

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Originally posted by Felix the Kzin:
I'd just like to point out that the problem with your three facetious examples is that none of them were ever onscreen.

FJ's drawings were. And not just once, but at least three times.

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First off, the Miranda image WAS seen on DS9 at least once, as part of the image that showed Sisko's tactical plan to retake DS9 in "Favor the Bold."

And as for the fact that FJ's designs (apparently) were used on the screen, I'd again like to ask if you also believe that there have been multiple admirals named Gene Roddenberry in command of Starfleet, from the time of the Enterprise-A straight through Voyager's time. (And one of his great-something grandfathers was also in command of one of the old DY-xxx colony ships listed in "Up the Long Ladder," too!)

When you get into the tiniest details like background images, you've GOT to make allowances.

However, I shall drop the argument now. Like I said, we can disagree.

"I suppose you're entitled to your delusions..." - C3PO

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“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha

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Originally posted by Timo:
What I'd very much like to see would be a Federation dreadnought, refitted in the TMP style.

Fanfic abounds with ships that use the TMP version of NCC-1701 as the basis, and just add a third nacelle, or tamper a bit with the pylons and the neck. A precious few use a "customized" secondary hull that resembles the FJ Federation hull. They all use the NCC-1701 saucer, though. Which IMHO is idiotic - the saucer is a major defining feature of the Federation.

I just think there would be potential in a ship that featured a saucer that does to the FJ Federation one what TMP did to the Enterprise' saucer. Or even leaves the saucer unaltered in shape, and just adds TMP-style paintwork and surface detail.

Timo Saloniemi

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