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Author Topic: GO DASCHLE!
Omega
Some other beginning's end
Member # 91

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Funny, I thought we were all in agreement that he never let them do their job in the first place...

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"This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
- God, "God, the Devil and Bob"

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Malnurtured Snay
Blogger
Member # 411

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Yeah, but since he's making the offer, it's kind of hard to say "Saddam isn't letting us inspect weapons, KILL HIM!"

PS -- kind of interesting how every time Clinton bombed Iraq, Republicans screamed that he was trying to take public interest off his "scandals", isn't it ... ?

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www.malnurturedsnay.net

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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Jeff, the problem is that he did say come on in, but you can't look in to anything at my presidential palaces, which I now have a lot of. Oh, you thought those were military bases, no, no, those were always presidential palaces, I just never named them till I didn't want you there....

Okay, we search all the places he lets us, then bomb the fuck out of the rest....

This seems fair to me...

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Wraith
Zen Riot Activist
Member # 779

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Not to mention that the 'presidential palaces' are usually about the same size as central London...

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"I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Regarding the Weekly Standard article:

quote:
This new article in the Weekly Standard by Stephen F. Hayes ("Democrats for Regime Change") is getting a lot of attention by tarring Democrats as hypocrites on Iraq. Hayes takes us back to February 1998 when President Clinton was ratcheting up pressure for military action against Iraq in the then-on-going struggle over inspections. He quotes the then-president extensively on the necessity of acting. And he quotes Democrats like Tom Daschle, Dick Gephardt and John Kerry supporting the president and echoing his argument for action -- including military action -- against Iraq.

Hayes' argument -- first implicit, later explicit -- is obvious: what else beside partisanship would be preventing Democrats from endorsing the case against Saddam and the need for military action now when they did so so fulsomely four years ago?

The argument reads well. But it sets the Standard in a two-against-one battle against logic and the its own editorial line.

After all, just what sort of military action was being discussed? And with what aim? Even the most skittish Democrats today are full of talk about the necessity of confronting Iraq, the dangers of WMD, and so forth. But Hayes' argument only makes sense if what Democrats were inclined to endorse four years ago is at all similar to what they're hesitant to endorse today. But, of course, it's not. The entire discussion Hayes references refers to military action, but not the forcible overthrow of the Iraqi regime through military force.

Who says so? Why, the Weekly Standard. And virtually every other Republican politician and certainly every conservative publication. The conceit of Bush administration policy on Iraq is that it's fundamentally different from Clinton administration policy -- which is, by and large, true. At just the time Bill Clinton and the sundry Democrats Hayes' quotes were making their statements the Standard said, succinctly enough, that "Containment is the strategy this administration has chosen." (Weekly Standard, Editorial, March 2, 1998) In other words, the policy then on offer was fundamentally different from what's now being discussed. Supporting that one then and not supporting this one today means nothing.

Perhaps Clinton's policy was the wrong one. Pains me as it does to say, by the end of the second term I don't think the Clinton administration had a coherent policy on Iraq. But the logic of Hayes' argument collapses at the simple level of a mistaken apples and oranges comparison.

Link

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Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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quote:
dunno, could have something to do with the fact that Saddam is willing to let weapons inspectors in now, et al.

This is a good point, with one or two rather large problems.

#1. Saddam lies. A lot. This is a bit of a historical precedent.

#2. The inspectors LAST TIME were supposed to have 'unfettered access.' And they did, until they actually wanted to do anything to CONFIRM that the weapons had actually been destroyed, or weren't being manufactured anywhere like in hospitals (best place for a biowar lab) or in those military installations-cum-palaces which suddenly sprouted anywhere.

Now, if you want to lay offs, we could set up a pool to see how long it takes for "unfettered access" to turn to "you can't go there."

Put me down for 10 minutes.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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Feeling generous are you???
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PsyLiam
Hungry for you
Member # 73

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Why??!!??!

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Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.

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EdipisReks
Ex-Member


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quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
Why??!!??!

i think he was referring to First of Two giving an entire 10 minutes. but maybe i'm wrong. i am, afterall, not a sailor.
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Sol System
two dollar pistol
Member # 30

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Yes, but I think you were not reading Mr. Liam's comment closely enough. A hint??!?!?!?!?!?
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First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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Nevermind, I am already proven correct.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/811728.asp?pne=msn

quote:
According to U.N. and Iraqi officials, restrictions on surprise visits to President Saddam Hussein’s presidential palaces remain in place.
Since it has already been established that several of his "palaces" were military installations prior to being "renamed" during the last inspection cycle, I submit that the value and reliability of any future inspections are now highly questionable.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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quote:
Since it has already been established that several of his "palaces" were military installations prior to being "renamed" during the last inspection cycle, I submit that the value and reliability of any future inspections are now highly questionable.
I agree. Inspections need to be unconditional.

Now I have to go get some water as I can't believe I agreed with Rob.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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The nice thing about being a hradline independant is that I agree with whomever I feel is right, unfettered by party lines.....

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Cause I only disagree with Rob just because he a Republican. [Roll Eyes]

I don't even know or care if he is.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33

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Canadians are backing American demands for unfettered, unscheduled, and unannounced inspections. They want a tough new resolution addressing this drafted in the UN. The current one basically, as everyone would agree, has no teeth.

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"And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian
FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
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