posted
If we assume that to be the case, then we're down to a few major possibilities. A) Bush lied, and Iraq had no WMDs. B) Iraq's WMDs have simply yet to be found in Iraq. C) Iraq's WMDs have been moved out of Iraq. D) Iraq's WMDs were destroyed, but not in such a way that this could be verified.
Yeah, it's possible that Bush lied, but there's no evidence of that. It'd be completely out of character. However, it would NOT be out of character for Sadaam Hussein to move WMDs out of the country so they wouldn't be found, while simultaneously escaping elsewhere. One thought that's occured to me is that Sadaam set up an entire war specifically to discredit Bush. But that's just a random notion, with no more evidence behind it than any of the other possibilities I list. If you can prove that Bush lied, then do so. If you can prove that Iraq had WMDs, then do so. Until then, I intend to remain open to all possibilities.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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You said they were there. You dumped on the UN for not finding them. You can't back up your reason for the invasion. Now you find them. No excuse will be acceptable.
The USA has two options. Total evidence, or total loss of credibility.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well as for the moved them out of Iraq theory, this is the most watched country on the planet. US and British(one t) forces have been bombing the northern and southern parts of the country every day for the last 12 years. Iran is an enemy of Iraq so it is quite unlikely that he has been sending the WMD to his enemy. This only leaves a very small corridor into Syria and Jordan, which you know the US has been watching constantly since they started mouthing about the WMD. So this they spirited them away idea has no credibility.
As for part d) Hans Blix had said that after the US kicked him out of Iraq in 98, so they could bomb it, that he had done ~95% of what he wanted to do on find in Iraq, this left very little of its per GWI capabilities left, certainly not enough to go to war over. And Blix has also said that facilities he rechecked had shown no sign of restarting up.
The other possiblity that you have not thought of is that the US intelligence was just so bad that they had no idea what was going on in Iraq, as I pointed out in an earlier post, if the intelligence that the US was feeding the inspectors kept being proven wrong then the US should have gone back at that point and rechecked the intelligence. At the time Hans Blix was told by the Americans that this was the best intelligence that they had, and all of it was proven wrong, wouldn't you kind of think that you might have gotten this story wrong at this point? But the Bushies kept insisting that the stuff was there, so they are either liars or stupid. Come to think of it the 230 odd other places they have check have also come up empty, not a thing tied to wmd. Was the American intelligence that bad or were they lying, surely people can't be that loyal that they would follow a liar or an idiot.
Please, he is a politician, they all lie, it is part of the job. Even you can't be that young as to still believe that politicians don't lie. Also this is a man that solicited funds for companies he drove into the ground, you can't take other peoples's money and drive that company into the ground without telling the odd fib here and there.
-------------------- "and none of your usual boobery." M. Burns
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
So this they spirited them away idea has no credibility.
Unless we could inspect every single usable container being removed from Iraq over the last couple years, you can't say that and expect the pronouncement to be taken seriously.
Iran is an enemy of Iraq so it is quite unlikely that he has been sending the WMD to his enemy. This only leaves a very small corridor into Syria, which you know the US has been watching constantly since they started mouthing about the WMD.
You're assuming movement by land. Iraq also has a coastline and airports, no? You're also assuming that the weapons would have been handed over to another government. If I were Hussein, I'd be more likely to pull a Bin Laden and set up my own mobile terrorist network. He could theoretically hit the US, and he's a much harder target to hit back if nobody's even sure he's alive. But again, just a thought.
As for part d) Hans Blix had said that after the US kicked him out of Iraq in 98, so they could bomb it, that he had done ~95% of what he wanted to do on find in Iraq, this left very little of its per GWI capabilities left, certainly not enough to go to war over. And Blix has also said that facilities he rechecked had shown no sign of restarting up.
Yes, but the war was based on the assumption that Iraq was hiding its program from UN weapons inspectors. Repeating that adds nothing.
The other possiblity that you have not thought of is that the US intelligence was just so bad that they had no idea what was going on in Iraq
I did think of that. But I prefaced my list with the assumption that the post prior to mine, which stated that our intelligence couldn't possibly screw up that badly, was correct. Of course I consider it possible, but I specifically stated in my post that for the sake of that post I was tossing that possibility out.
But the Bushies kept insisting that the stuff was there, so they are either liars or stupid.
Or their information was bad. You just said that that was also possible. Make up your mind.
Please, he is a politician, they all lie, it is part of the job. Even you can't be that young as to still believe that politicians don't lie.
Frankly, Bush has thus far appeared to be a Christian, and I mean in the way he lives, not just in that he goes to church every so often. That earns him the benefit of the doubt in my book.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
"It'd be completely out of character."
I found it completely out of character that Clinton lied about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. But it happened. He lied.
"Frankly, Bush has thus far appeared to be a Christian, and I mean in the way he lives, not just in that he goes to church every so often. That earns him the benefit of the doubt in my book."
Certain people in the archdiocese don't appear to be any better.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
...not to mention the rumblings from the security services that Blair and Campbell manipulated and exaggerated the evidence in the 'dodgy dossier'. This led to Reid's allegations of 'Rogue elements', btw.
And even the Pentagon's DIA believes there is "no reliable information" about whether Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Registered: Feb 2002
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"Frankly, Bush has thus far appeared to be a Christian..."
So did Nixon. 'Course, he was a Quacker, not a Methodist...
Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Unless we could inspect every single usable container being removed from Iraq over the last couple years, you can't say that and expect the pronouncement to be taken seriously.
We are talking hundreds of thousands of gallons of this stuff. Spiriting it away in jerry cans just aint going to cut it. Also Iraq was under no idea that it was going to be attacked until the spring before last, so time restraints on getting this stuff out were very short. And again where do you send it.
quote:You're assuming movement by land. Iraq also has a coastline and airports, no? You're also assuming that the weapons would have been handed over to another government. If I were Hussein, I'd be more likely to pull a Bin Laden and set up my own mobile terrorist network. He could theoretically hit the US, and he's a much harder target to hit back if nobody's even sure he's alive. But again, just a thought.
Well if you consider the Perian Gulf has been patrolled by warships from a variety of nations for the last twelve years, you know the embargo which has been on Iraq, they have been checking everything that comes in and out of Iraq for all this time. If any significant amounts of this stuff were being shipped from Iraq, then surely some of it must have been found.
Oh and any transport plane carrying fluids out would have been tracked and checked. You obviously have no Idea how extensive the embargo was, especially after the US decided it would attack.
quote:Yes, but the war was based on the assumption that Iraq was hiding its program from UN weapons inspectors. Repeating that adds nothing.
But that was the best intelligence we had on the ground in Iraq, the US just refused to believe it because they already had their agenda in place.
quote:But the Bushies kept insisting that the stuff was there, so they are either liars or stupid.
Or their information was bad. You just said that that was also possible. Make up your mind.
Ah children will they ever learn to read, this statement comes from the point I made about there intelligence being refuted over and over again by the inspectors, their best intelligence mind you, so I said that having seen that there intelligence was faulty, by still making the same point, they are either liars or stupid.
quote:Frankly, Bush has thus far appeared to be a Christian, and I mean in the way he lives, not just in that he goes to church every so often. That earns him the benefit of the doubt in my book.
First of all christians lie, I know it is a shock to you, everytime they insist that there is a god they are lying. I guess the drinking and driving is now part of christian dogma, as is execution, even torture, hell give him a few Iraqi slaves and he will be a model christian in your eyes.
-------------------- "and none of your usual boobery." M. Burns
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I resent that, Grocka. Yes, Christians can lie, too, but in my opinion, they do not lie about there being a God. But this is not a religious debate. This is an earthly debate about whether George W. Bush and Tony Blair made up the case for going to war with Iraq. Which, unlike the existence of God, can be proven without a doubt by us humans.
posted
I found it completely out of character that Clinton lied about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. But it happened. He lied.
Funny, I found it perfectly in character with his previous actions and statements.
Certain people in the archdiocese don't appear to be any better.
True enough, but then, I didn't claim it was impossible for him to be lying. I said I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
We are talking hundreds of thousands of gallons of this stuff.
Not necessarily. Some could have been destroyed and the rest transported elsewhere over a long period of time. And are not hundreds of thousands of gallons of oil transported out of Iraq, y'know, pretty regularly? The equipment does exist.
Also Iraq was under no idea that it was going to be attacked until the spring before last, so time restraints on getting this stuff out were very short.
Come on. I was seven when the gulf war ended, and even then I knew there'd be another one eventually. Saddam certainly knew the same thing. (Especially, going back to my pet whacko theory, if he specifically planted the information to start this war.)
And again where do you send it.
If it goes by sea, anywhere. All sorts of countries would want chemical and biological weapons, especially those near Israel. And if you consider the eastern coast of Africa, it's possible that the country where the materials were taken wouldn't notice or object.
you know the embargo which has been on Iraq
Then how exactly has Iraq been selling large quantities of oil illegally? Shoot, how was he selling oil to us? I'd be rather interested to know how that oil was physically getting here.
Ah children will they ever learn to read
Or punctuate?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
"Funny, I found it perfectly in character with his previous actions and statements."
Your opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if Bush lied, but it is not because it was perfectly in character with his previous actions and statements. It doesn't have to be. The fact that the WMDs are not turning up is casting very questionable doubts on his credibility.
"True enough, but then, I didn't claim it was impossible for him to be lying. I said I gave him the benefit of the doubt."
For the wrong reason of course. I am Christian myself (though presently a proud agnostic/Buddhist). I wouldn't give MYSELF the benefit of any doubt on lying.
It would be better to allow yourself to give Bush the benefit of a doubt for other reasons than he is a Christian. If I lie about what I did last night, and if the Archdiocese lies about their scandals (heck one of the bishops in New England is denying he committed a hit-and-run), why would being Christian give Bush the benefit of a doubt?
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I am Christian myself (though presently a proud agnostic/Buddhist).
Um... I'm rather sure you can't do that. Christianity is a mindset and a way of life. It's not something you can claim because of how you grew up or who your parents were.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
Oh, so you claim to be a christian NOT because your parents raised you that way from birth, thus subjecting you to ONE religion (ie., THEIRS) and imprinting THEIR mindset on you, but because you are such a DEEPLY spiritual person who ADOPTED a christian lifestyle voluntary & of his own accord at age SIX?
Registered: Nov 1999
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