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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » So, um, where ARE these WMDs? (Page 14)

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Author Topic: So, um, where ARE these WMDs?
Grokca
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quote:
It proves Iraq was concealing equipment
Actually it only proves that this man has been concealing equipment. If they were taking apart a facility where I work I would save some of the stuff, especially a large aluminum wheel with a good set of bearings. And as for plans, hell I have lots of plans for equipment from where I work at home, maybe I can sell it to Americans some day.
He could be lying when he said that he was hiding it for Hussain, in order to get the reward money to feed his family. We have nothing to corroborate his story with.

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"and none of your usual boobery."
M. Burns

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Veers
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Actually, that's a pretty flimsy argument. I have to say it before Fo2 does.
What that does prove, though, is that Iraq never restarted its nuclear program. It also proves that that equipment and those documents weren't of very much value to Saddam, because he didn't bother to ever take those things out and use them for 12 years.

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Meh

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Grokca
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quote:
Actually, that's a pretty flimsy argument.
The fact that he turned them in does not prove that he had them for the state, we only have his word for it.

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"and none of your usual boobery."
M. Burns

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Veers
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Still, would you rather have a Bush supporter bash you for not believing this man? That's what they want you to do. They say it's because of some "fantasy" that we all say Bush is a liar, and by saying this is not part of Saddam's old program gives them more material to say that we will discredit anyone who believes the opposite we believe.
I think it's part of Saddam's old program, but the fact it hasn't been used for over a dozen years proves he did not have a nuclear program since that time.

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Meh

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First of Two
Better than you
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quote:
the fact it hasn't been used for over a dozen years proves he did not have a nuclear program since that time.

True enough. Or, at least, he did not have a nuclear program that had returned to the point of production. This is, in fact, good news, and supports, at least on the face of it, inspections.

Then again, the fact that this equipment was in storage under a rosebush, rather than either in the hands of the inspectors where it belonged, or destroyed, shows intent to resume production, once the coast was clear.

As the scientist himself has said, the equipment was to be brought out once the sanctions were lifted. The sanctions were not lifted, despite many calls for their lifting and much vilification of the US for insisting that they remain in place, therefore the equipment was not brought out.

Is this a big Bush win? Hardly. Does it support what the Bush Administration has been saying? Somewhat yes, somewhat no. It doesn't look like Iraq had an active nuclear weapons program. But it sure makes it look like they intended to have one as soon as they could.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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First of Two
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This article contains a little more of interest that seems to have gotten a bit "lost" in the standard reporting of the centrifuge find...

quote:
The more significant discoveries were related to Saddam�s attempts to rebuild chemical and biological arsenals like those he was known to have used during the Iran-Iraq War of the late 1980s, when he was supported by the U.S. government.

Sources told NBC News� Jim Miklaszewski that within just the past week, U.S. investigators had found two shipping containers filled with millions of much more recent documents relating to chemical and biological weapons.

One of the documents, from 2001, was titled �Document burial and U.N. activities in Iraq,� the sources said. It gave detailed instructions on how to hide materials and deceive U.N. weapons inspectors, the sources said.
Other documents related to the concealment of VX nerve gas, the sources said.

The sources said U.S. troops also discovered about 300 sacks of castor beans, which are used to make the deadly biological agent ricin, hidden in a warehouse in the town of al-Aziziyah, 50 miles southeast of Baghdad, the capital. The castor beans were inaccurately labeled as fertilizer.

U.S. search teams have also been led to a site near Nasiriyah, a key Euphrates River crossing 200 miles south of Baghdad, where Iraqi informants said Scud missiles were buried.



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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Jay the Obscure
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So, they have found documents and castor beans?

The actual WMD's can't be very far behind then. Hopefully, they will be found in the next country we want to attack just in time for Mr. Bush to use them as an excuse again.

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Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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First of Two
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I swear, sometimes I think that you could show Jay a book entitled "How to hide WMD's" written and autographed by Saddam Hussein himself, and he'd still believe that Hussein didn't know how to or intend to conceal WMD's.

I'm kidding, of course. Not even a neutron star is that dense.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Grokca
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Wow beans now too! Good thing they invaded when they did.

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M. Burns

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Veers
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So, we should find the WMD in no time, right? We've got the documents, the informants, and the location, right? It's only a matter of days, right?
If not, then how long should we give Bush? Another few months? Another year? Until he is elected, or taken from office?

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Meh

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Jay the Obscure
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I've just returned from a trip to the land of Snay, Maryland, and found this article very interesting.

The author and the source are not easily dismissed by hoots about Jayson Blair.

Again, I post the whole thing for the link impaired.

quote:
WASHINGTON � There was a time when conservatives fought passionately to preserve America as a limited constitutional republic. That was, in fact, the essence of conservatism. It's one reason Franklin Roosevelt's vast expansion of government through the New Deal aroused such bitter opposition on the right.

But many conservative activists seem to have lost that philosophical commitment. They now advocate autocratic executive rule, largely unconstrained by constitutional procedures or popular opinions.

This curious attitude is evident in the conservative response to the gnawing question: Where are Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction? A surprising number of conservatives respond: So what? He must have had them; maybe he gave them away. And, anyway, Hussein was a bad guy. In their view, even to ask the question is to mount a partisan attack on President Bush, and that's downright unpatriotic.It always seemed likely that Baghdad possessed WMD. Not only did Iraq once maintain a WMD program, but how else to explain the regime's obstructionist behavior during the inspections process?

Yet it made equal sense to assume that a desperate Hussein would use any WMD to defend his regime - and that serious elements of Baghdad's arsenal would be quickly found.

There may be a logical explanation for the fact that WMD were not used and have not been located; significant WMD stockpiles might eventually turn up.

Moreover, it's hard to imagine the administration simply concocting its WMD claims. The president, though a practiced politician, isn't the type to lie so blatantly. Whatever the faults of his lieutenants, none seems likely to advance a falsehood that would be so hard to maintain.

But the longer we go without any discoveries, the more questionable the prewar claims appear to have been. The allies have checked all of the sites originally targeted for inspection, arrested leading Baath Party members, and offered substantial rewards for information. Even in Hussein's centralized regime, more than a few people must have known where any WMD stocks were hidden or transferred and would be able to help now.

Which means it is entirely fair to ask the administration, where are the WMD? The answer matters for the simplest practical reasons. Possible intelligence failures need to be corrected. Washington's loss of credibility should be addressed; saying "trust me" will be much harder for this president in the future or a future president.

Stonewalling poses an even greater threat to our principles of government. It matters whether the president lied to the American people. Political fibs are common, not just about with whom presidents have had sex, but also to advance foreign-policy goals. Remember the Tonkin Gulf incident, inaccurate claims of Iraqi troop movements against Saudi Arabia before the first Gulf war, and repetition of false atrocity claims from ethnic Albanian guerrillas during the Kosovo war.

Perhaps the administration manipulated the evidence, choosing information that backed its view, turning assumptions into certainties, and hyping equivocal materials. That, too, would hardly be unusual. But no president should take the US into war under false pretenses. There is no more important decision: The American people deserve to hear official doubts as well as certitudes.

The point is not that the administration is necessarily guilty of misbehavior, but that it should be forced to defend its decisionmaking process.

Pointing to substitute justifications for the war just won't do. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz notes that the alleged Al Qaeda connection divided the administration internally, and humanitarian concerns did not warrant risking American lives. Only fear over Iraqi possession of WMD unified the administration, won the support of allies, particularly Britain, and served as the centerpiece of the administration's case. If the WMD didn't exist, or were ineffective, Washington's professed case for war collapses.

Conservatives' lack of interest in the WMD question takes an even more ominous turn when combined with general support for presidential warmaking. Republicans - think President Eisenhower, for instance - once took seriously the requirement that Congress declare war. These days, however, Republican presidents and legislators, backed by conservative intellectuals, routinely argue that the chief executive can unilaterally take America into war.

Thus, in their view, once someone is elected president, he or she faces no legal or political constraint. The president doesn't need congressional authority; Washington doesn't need UN authority. Allied support is irrelevant. The president needn't offer the public a justification for going to war that holds up after the conflict ends. The president may not even be questioned about the legitimacy of his professed justification. Accept his word and let him do whatever he wants, irrespective of circumstances.

This is not the government created by the Founders. This is not the government that any believer in liberty should favor.

It is foolish to turn the Iraq war, a prudential political question, into a philosophical test for conservatism. It is even worse to demand unthinking support for Bush. He should be pressed on the issue of WMD - by conservatives. Fidelity to the Constitution and republican government demands no less.

Doug Bandow is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute. He served as a special assistant to President Ronald Reagan.

Doug Bandow, The Christian Science Monitor



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Well, that'll bring the errant Farquad back. Failing that, you might have to draw a pentangle and chant "I summon thee" three times. 8)

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Jay the Obscure
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[Smile]
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Veers
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This is interesting...

The CIA says that it was known to be false in March 2002. Bush & co. countered that by saying it may never have reached the president.
That would mean when they decided to use it for the State of the Union, they never decided to check to see if it was true, never consulted the CIA, and just went ahead and used it.
My God, if they didn't deliberately mislead us, then we have some horrible staff in Washington!Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, GEORGE TENET...none of them bothered to tell him the uranium story was false.

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Meh

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First of Two
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Some good, some bad...

quote:
LONDON, England (CNN) -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair "misrepresented" the findings of intelligence information on Iraq's weapons program, but the government did not mislead the public ahead of the war, a parliamentary committee has found.

The committee on Monday cleared the government's communication director of any wrongdoing in the preparation of a dossier used to justify the UK joining the U.S.-led war against Iraq.

quote:
"We conclude that the claims made in the September dossier were in all probability well founded on the basis of the intelligence then available," the committee said.

But it said the dossier "was in places more assertive than that traditionally used in intelligence documents."

The government has acknowledged that the 45-minute reference came from a single source. However, it said that source was thought to be reliable.

As for the February dossier, the committee concluded that Blair, in comments to the House of Commons, "misrepresented its status and thus inadvertently made a bad situation worse."

"We conclude that the effect of the February dossier was almost wholly counterproductive. By producing such a document the government undermined the credibility of their case for war and of other documents which were part of it," the committee said.

Parts of the February dossier were taken from a student's thesis which had been posted on the Internet.

But the committee believed that "ministers did not mislead Parliament."

"We conclude that it appeared likely that there was only limited access to reliable human intelligence in Iraq and that as a consequence the United Kingdom may have been heavily reliant on U.S. technical intelligence, on the defectors and on exiles with an agenda of their own."


quote:
"We conclude that it is too soon to tell whether the government's assertions on Iraq's chemical and biological weapons will be borne out," the committee said.

"However, we have no doubt that the threat posed to United Kingdom forces was genuinely perceived as a real and present danger and that the steps taken to protect them were justified by the information available at the time."

quote:
Former House of Commons leader Robin Cook has accused Campbell of using the row with the BBC to draw attention away from the coalition's failure to find any weapons.

"He has managed to convince half the media that the Foreign Affairs inquiry is into the origins of his war with (the BBC) ... not in to the war with Iraq," Cook told The Guardian newspaper Monday.

"The serious allegation is that they got it wrong, and they should not be allowed to get off answering that issue because Alastair has souped up this controversy," said Cook, who quit the cabinet before the war began.


So the dossier (well, part of one of them) was "dodgy," but the steps taken were justified. And Cook is still harping...think someone wants to be PM?

--------------------
"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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