posted
Look we're not getting anywhere with this. Veers, I don't think (and I may be wrong on this) that any of us are saying that religion is awful and we'd all be better off without it. I think what we're saying is that fundamentalism and political evangelism have historically been perverted by those in power to less than altruistic goals with litterally catastrophic results. As you very rightly point out, the same has been done with atheism.
I and I think several others of different denominations/non-believers, feel that religion and spirituality are an entirely personal affaire, and that so long as your religion is not hurting anyone what does it matter what an individual believes. I'm not saying religions should not recruit, that's how they get new ideas and grow and evolve, etc. I think what people are saying is that this tendency to make generalizations about entire groups of people based solely on their belief structure (or lack thereof) has resulted in hugely violent and vitriolic centuries of human history. Wherein said vain and horrible violence would seem to run counter to the central principles of pretty much every major organized religion.
And but so when the Pope decrees that homosexual marriage is a bad thing (look at that, there's the topic) and that homosexuals are an abomination, I don't care. I don't subscribe to his religion. I don't agree with him in the slightest bit, and I think he's very wrong to use his position of power to make this kind of blanket statement (well, as Cartmaniac has pointed out he probably doesn't realize what he is saying anymore, but his office, the office of the papacy). But it's his religion and unfortunately he didn't (and really, I wouldn't have expected him to) issue this Bull (irony? nah) with a statement saying "Look, the homos are dirty wretched creatures who are yucky and also pass disease (like it says here in this very old book), but seriously dudes, that doesn't mean you should tie them to the bumper of your truck and drag them to death, or beat the living fuck out of them at a party because you thought they were hitting on you or anything. Be confident that you are living a righteous life here upon the earth completely secure in your conventional and church-sanctioned heterosexuality and we'll see who's laughing at the pearly gates (i.e. not those dirty, dirty Soddomites)..." Or something.
And as a final thought, a deceptively wise atheist friend of mine once quipped: "Religious conflict is more or less a bunch of disturbingly zealous people arguing back and forth about who's invisible man in the sky is taller."
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
There's no maybe about it. You're encroaching on Pat Robertson territory.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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Say, there's one that hasn't come up: Rastafarianism.
"Oh, wait! I forgot! The Ten Commandments! The laws of on which our country was founded. But, I forgot, it would be a better without religion--so, everybody, go ahead and kill! Go commit adultery! Go lie, steal, and dishonor your father and mother! God and the Bible are wrong, so you don't have to listen to those rules!"
Whether it was your intention or not, I hate people like that. People who need an omnipotent being to tell them what to do and not do. I once had someone tell me that, if he didn't believe there was a god out there handing down commandments, he'd probably go out and steal stuff and kill people, because there'd be no reason to think it was wrong.
It's like if you tell a child "don't do this, don't do that" and tell them it's "because I said so". If you don't give them some more valid reason, then, if they ever figure out that you're full of shit, they won't have any more reason to refrain from doing "this" and "that". Maybe we ought to start teaching morals that have more backing than "someone we think is in charge but whom we've never met is said to have once told people...".
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Wow, its like Slashdot in here. 1. Veers makes absurd assumptions about what the world would be like without God and the Bible 2. Mucus mocks the argument by showing how absurd that argument is, by reversing it and applying it to how the world would be without scientific advancement. Also see: irony, dramatic 3. Omega points out that the reversed argument is in fact, absurd as planned. 4. ??? 5. Profit!!!
But seriously, Balaam Xumucane is pointing out a critical point.
quote: I think what we're saying is that fundamentalism and political evangelism have historically been perverted by those in power to less than altruistic goals with litterally catastrophic results. As you very rightly point out, the same has been done with atheism.
However, I would like to add an additional point to this. Yes, both runaway atheism and theism is dangerous. Both can be perverted and abused. (Which is probably why I'm agnostic, the ultimate fence-sitter) However, I would argue that the very structure of religion makes it more susceptible to abuse, as the Catholic Church is demonstrating very aptly. In fact, that very informative article Omega linked to explains this very notion.
quote: Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the [Christian] message won converts, it would seem that most Nazis were probably [Christians] too. After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a [Christian], he could still have been a theist. Or a deist"...Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.
And in the end, as the article points out, it really doesn't matter what he personally thought. What matters is that it is a very good form of control, since it is so very easy to pervert, and so very difficult to speak out against.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Pat Robertson? *Shudder* My point: Religion has its good points, and then its bad points. Hopefully more of the former. But to figure it out, you'd have to count them all, and there's a whole lot on both sides...
About the topic of this thread...has Gene Robinson (the pontentially first openly gay bishop) been confirmed yet?
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Veers: So, basically what I'm hearing is religion is bad. It would be better if it never existed. Uh-huh. Some people have tried to do away with it. Josef Stalin and Mao--just two people who had no religion. But I guess it still better if there was no religion.
Oh, wait! I forgot! The Ten Commandments! The laws of on which our country was founded. But, I forgot, it would be a better without religion--so, everybody, go ahead and kill! Go commit adultery! Go lie, steal, and dishonor your father and mother! God and the Bible are wrong, so you don't have to listen to those rules! Oh, I forgot! Don't say "Oh My God!" Don't celebrate Christmas, or Easter! Don't watch "It's a Wonderful Life!"
Laws and morals defining Adultery, stealing, and murder as wrong and punishable far outdate any mono-theistic religous system. By over a thousand of years in fact. Read the epic of Gilgamesh sometime, your Bible plagerized a lot of it, so you'll find it familliar at least. I don't say "Oh My God" I say "Jesus Fuck!". It emphisizes the general point of suprise without being so cliche'. Try it at church some time and see how forgiving they are of their fellow man.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
But "Jesus Fuck" is obviously intended merely to agrivate people of a religious persuasion, and therefore is just as silly as anything Tim does to the word "with".
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
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posted
FUCK JEBUS !! !!11!!?
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-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Nim: "One interpretation translates his name as Iehobu".
Another interpertation is "Chtuhlu".
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: But "Jesus Fuck" is obviously intended merely to agrivate people of a religious persuasion, and therefore is just as silly as anything Tim does to the word "with".
Not so: I just don't believe in doing anything half-assed. Why not blasphemy and be profane at the same time? Two birds with one stone and all that...
It all stated when one of my fellow co-workers slammed his hand in a printing press and yelled "Jesus!", then seeing the largish cut in his hand yelled "Fuck!" almost right after.... Kinda a reeses peanutbutter cup commercial kinda thing: Y'know, "you got your blasphmey in my profanity" "No, YOU got YOUR profanity in my blasphmey". For no good reason it just stuck and a couple of us non-secular types have been using it every since.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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