posted
Please explain to me how my sister, who loves and adores this wonderful woman she's now lived in harmony with for over five years, could, by marrying this woman, be sullying the sanctity of marriage one iota more than these fucking "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" reality-TV shows?
I... don't believe I ever implied such a thing.
[Greed and pride and envy] are character traits. Homosexuality is not.
I'm not sure I see the difference. They're actions that some people might be predisposed to that can eventually become habitual. And like all habits (and character traits) they can be changed with sufficient desire.
People don't choose their sexual orientation.
People choose how they act, which is the main question at hand. You're going to respond that their actions are based on their innate attraction for their own gender. As above, people CAN choose what gender they're attracted to with sufficient motivation. There are documented cases of this.
Who are you to say your way is the intended way? Who are you to say what is and isn't good for them? Who are you to say they lack anything?
I'm the guy whose opinion was asked.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: So (and I hate to do this), how does allowing two people who happen to be related but who also love each other (in that way) to be joined in a legal and spiritual sense possibly hurt you?
Well it wouldn't, probably. I mean unless they had a kid who came out violently malformed and it sunk its big, crooked single tusk through my infant's spine or something. No, I find it wrong and generally reprehensible and fucked up and weird, and probably so would most folks. But that's my (our) morality. And I don't know that my morality needs to be codified in constitutional law.
Really. Then here's a question. At least in Canada (and at least in Missouri, and Omega notwithstanding, I would suspect most of the US) incest is illegal. Even sleeping with a sibling is illegal, let alone marriage. Why are you so enraged by a proposal to ban the simple use of a title to describe homosexual couples when incestual couples have their rights violated on a continuous basis (indeed, being thrown in jail) by being denied even simple sexual relations? By all rights, you should be twice (or ten times) as angry about incest being banned. But it seems that you just don't care. Doesn't that seem a little bit hypocritical to you?
Its ok for other people to be repressed, but when its your sister....whoa....watch out!
quote: Cartman: People don't choose their sexual orientation.
You're implying that homosexuality is genetically set. Proof!
quote: Omega: People choose how they act, which is the main question at hand. You're going to respond that their actions are based on their innate attraction for their own gender. As above, people CAN choose what gender they're attracted to with sufficient motivation. There are documented cases of this.
Really? Can people change the fact whether they have Down's syndrome or not? Can people choose not to be affected by it? You're implying that homosexuality is a choice. Proof!
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posted
I forgot if this has been brought up before, but I have a question to ask.
Have any of you, any of you at all, chosen you you're attracted to? I mean, you have standards, but did you choose those standards? Do you, your conscious mind decide who fits those standards? I know that mine doesn't. And the same is almost certainly true of a homosexual (I won't imply that it is until one states that it is so). Assuming that this premise is the case, homosexuality is not a conscious choice.
(And I have to admit...I wouldn't mind the legalization of at least once-removed incest or polygamy. I really wouldn't like it personally...but legally I don't see how you could have the law stand. And there is also the fact that you can't legislate morality: too many different moral codes to do so.)
-------------------- Fell deeds await. Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and a Red Dawn... -Theoden, TTT
Lord Vorkosigan does not always get what he wants!
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posted
Did I say anything about Down's Syndrome? I don't get what you're going for there.
As for homosexuality being a choice, all ACTIONS are choices. We're sentient beings with free will, after all. As far as attraction goes, that's certainly partially determined by genetics. I seem to have a genetic disposition to like short redheads, inherited from my dad. But that doesn't mean I can't refuse to enter into a relationship with one, nor does it mean I can't choose not to even consider a relationship with one feasable. Again, we're beings with free will.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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So, humans are free beings with free will, but they should really repress their deepest feelings and act AGAINST said free will to fit the mold of christian-dominated society. Righto.
As above, people CAN choose what gender they're attracted to with sufficient motivation. There are documented cases of this.
I can't choose to be attracted to males. Can you choose to be attracted to short MALE redheads? No? Maybe you're just not motivated enough. Or maybe you can't because deep down you find the idea reprehensible, because it goes against your very NATURE. Maybe.
Also, in how many of those "documented" (SOURCE!) cases were people NOT, oh, pressured by their local fundie church community into adopting a straight orientation? How many of them REALLY, permanently changed of their own volition?
Mucus: no, I don't have proof that homosexuality is genetic beyond a lot of tentative links (which you, as a bioinformatics student, should be quite familiar with), but if it isn't, I would sure like to know why "free beings with free will" would pick a lifetime of prejudice and bigotry over one of instant acceptance.
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posted
So, humans are free beings with free will, but they should really repress their deepest feelings and act AGAINST said free will to fit the mold of christian-dominated society.
No. They should change their habitual actions to more closely conform to the will of God for human life in general. Why the frell would they just do it to fit the mold of society? That'd be silly.
Can you choose to be attracted to short MALE redheads? No? Maybe you're just not motivated enough.
Quite. I have no REASON to want to be attracted to males, and thus I'm not going to try, any more than you've tried. However, if one happens to believe in the God of the Bible, then one DOES have a reason to try not to be attracted to members of the same sex.
I would sure like to know why "free beings with free will" would pick a lifetime of prejudice and bigotry over one of instant acceptance.
Um... I hardly think you want to state that gays DON'T have free will. They can act however they please, as I've repeatedly stated. As for why someone would choose running occasional bigotry when they could choose otherwise, change is not easy, and most homosexuals don't recognize any need to change in the first place.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
They should change their habitual actions to more closely conform to the will of God for human life in general.
Which is? You don't speak for God, I presume. You might have some faint imagined scent of a trail of a clue about it, but no more than that, so for the third time, why should people conform to your way of life when theirs, for all anyone knows, are just as right?
Why the frell would they just do it to fit the mold of society?
Because they don't like to be ostracized for their sexual preference?
However, if one happens to believe in the God of the Bible, then one DOES have a reason to try not to be attracted to members of the same sex.
Yes, for certain narrow interpretations of the Bible. You don't think yours is the only valid one, do you?
Um... I hardly think you want to state that gays DON'T have free will. They can act however they please, as I've repeatedly stated. As for why someone would choose running occasional bigotry when they could choose otherwise, change is not easy, and most homosexuals don't recognize any need to change in the first place.
Hang on. Do you believe everybody is born straight or not? If the former, tell me why people would willingly "convert" to a homosexual lifestyle, because I really can't fathom a reason for it. If the latter, tell me why we are having this discussion, because changing a condition you're born with isn't just "not easy", it's IMPOSSIBLE.
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quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Hang on. Do you believe everybody is born straight or not? If the former, tell me why people would willingly "convert" to a homosexual lifestyle, because I really can't fathom a reason for it. If the latter, tell me why we are having this discussion, because changing a condition you're born with isn't just "not easy", it's IMPOSSIBLE.
Well, if I'm following Omega's arguments, it'd be the same as someone born with a predisposition towards comitting crimes. It is something they are born with, but in the eyes of society/certain relgious groups, it's something that the person should try and change.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
I would like to point out that, appearances to the contrary, I am one of the most devout Christians alive. However, I do not presume to speak for my God when I declare something right or wrong, especially given the many forms that He has taken across the world. I will let Him judge everyone based on what He thinks is right and wrong, not what men think is right and wrong. I personally find the acts involved in homosexual sex quite disgusting, I am not a fan of the concept of anal sex or blowjobs. But I believe that interrupting and condemning a consensual act of love between adults is highly wrong.
-------------------- Fell deeds await. Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and a Red Dawn... -Theoden, TTT
Lord Vorkosigan does not always get what he wants!
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I keep forgetting that oral sex is illegal in some US states. I really would like to hear the reasoning behind that.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
so for the third time, why should people conform to your way of life when theirs, for all anyone knows, are just as right?
And for at least the third time, my opinion was asked, and I've stated it. If you don't agree, fine, but please stop jumping down my throat for no other reason than that, GASP, I might just believe that something is WRONG and how DARE I believe in an objective moral framework, anyway?!
for certain narrow interpretations of the Bible. You don't think yours is the only valid one, do you?
On this subject, yes. There's not much interpretation to be done.
if I'm following Omega's arguments, it'd be the same as someone born with a predisposition towards comitting crimes. It is something they are born with, but in the eyes of society/certain relgious groups, it's something that the person should try and change.
Liam wins a cookie! Snickerdoodles okay?
I am one of the most devout Christians alive.
w00t! We actually have another Christian on the boards! That makes, what, four of us?
I do not presume to speak for my God when I declare something right or wrong, especially given the many forms that He has taken across the world. I will let Him judge everyone based on what He thinks is right and wrong, not what men think is right and wrong.
We're here for the same reason Christ came, so that they may have life and have it to the full. How can that be if we don't tell them how life is meant to be lived? Yes, God will eventually judge each person as only he is qualified to do, but that doesn't mean we can't make statements as to the moral value of certain actions, and in fact we must do so in many circumstances.
I keep forgetting that oral sex is illegal in some US states. I really would like to hear the reasoning behind that.
The reasoning behind the laws was, I believe, to prevent gays from having sex. If you outlaw all forms of sex except those that require one person of each gender, then you've effectively outlawed homosexuality without actually outlawing it. It'd be like requiring a one-year waiting period before you can have an abortion.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:We're here for the same reason Christ came, so that they may have life and have it to the full. How can that be if we don't tell them how life is meant to be lived? Yes, God will eventually judge each person as only he is qualified to do, but that doesn't mean we can't make statements as to the moral value of certain actions, and in fact we must do so in many circumstances.
I believe that we should present them with the opportunity to follow Christ...but that we shouldn't condemn them if they don't. But given that God has (In my belief) appeared in many different forms to many different cultures, often with the same message, but with wildly different moral codes.
And then there's the fact that at least the US government (and other democracies ) has to represent a plurality, so it's better to adopt a secular morality for government. And a secular morality is the following: As long as something does not victimise someone else or kill them then it is acceptable. Does homosexuality hurt you in any way?
quote:w00t! We actually have another Christian on the boards! That makes, what, four of us?
Come join the SCN forums, we have a nice population growing.
(Psst, thanks for giving me a chance to actually analyze my moral code so I could argue it with you...it let me sort out some of the inconsistencies in there )
-------------------- Fell deeds await. Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and a Red Dawn... -Theoden, TTT
Lord Vorkosigan does not always get what he wants!
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posted
God has (In my belief) appeared in many different forms to many different cultures, often with the same message, but with wildly different moral codes.
I'm not sure how wild a difference would be possible, given that the basic belief of Christianity is that the will of God for human life was revealed perfectly in the life of Christ. Can you give me an example?
And then there's the fact that at least the US government (and other democracies ) has to represent a plurality, so it's better to adopt a secular morality for government.
That gets into a running conundrum my cousin Bryan and I talk about occasionally. Governments can not be perfectly Christian. If all the Good Guys(TM) continually turned the other cheek, then some unpleasant group or another would currently be ruling most of the planet. Of course, that's where just war theory comes in, and the idea that it's perfectly okay for a Christian to fight under certain extremely limited circumstances. What's a Christian to do?
And a secular morality is the following: As long as something does not victimise someone else or kill them then it is acceptable.
Tell France that.
Psst, thanks for giving me a chance to actually analyze my moral code so I could argue it with you...it let me sort out some of the inconsistencies in there
Any time.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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) has to represent a plurality, so it's better to adopt a secular morality for government. And a secular morality is the following: As long as something does not victimise someone else or kill them then it is acceptable. Does homosexuality hurt you in any way?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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