posted
It's amazing how once anyone talks about gay marriage someone starts talking about incest.
Apples and asteroids people.
Not the same thing at all.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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(In the context of this surprisingly mature conversation everyone is having)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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Really, the incest issue is usually brought up by someone of the Christian belief trying to tie one to the other as examples of sin and moral decay etc.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
Actually, the people who say "If we allow gay sex/marriages, we'll have to allow incest." have a point. Not a very good one, since the response is "So what? Mind your own business.". But a point nonetheless.
It's the people who say "If we allow gay sex/marriages, we'll have to allow bestiality/pedophilia/etc." that I don't get. One is a relationship between consenting adults. The other is abuse of someone immature / something that can't fight back. So, that's the insane arguement, not the incest one.
"I'm not completely sure what the law is in this country, but I suspect that the number of people who'd want to marry their cousins is less than the US."
Well, yours are all confined to the royalty...
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posted
Actually, they DONT have a point. The laws on incest would stand because incest causes birth defects and possibly more Religous Right fanatics and both should be eliminated via selective breeding and education.
Gays getting married hurts nothing except the Right's antiquated sense of "morality".
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Actually, they DONT have a point. The laws on incest would stand because incest causes birth defects and possibly more Religous Right fanatics and both should be eliminated via selective breeding and education.
So you are saying that a Down's Syndrome couple shouldn't be allowed to have children? Or people who are born deaf? Or who have a low IQ?
What about if brothers and sisters were allowed to marry, with all the tax benefits and so forth that that entails, but weren't allowed to bread? Would that be okay?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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posted
Damnit, someone remind me how I got stuck on Psyliam and Omega's side of the conversation before I see the credits to "The Scary Door"
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I didn't say such relationships couldn't possibly work. I said they weren't good for the people involved. They lack relationship with God.
I have trouble understanding what types of relationships can "work" and not be good for the people involved. Mind giving a few more examples?
I just met a very nice guy today at my local Humanity's Team meeting. He and his partner have three kids, and his family is very "normal" -- except that the parents are gay. It's not that gays don't have a relationship with God -- it's that religionists reject gays out of hand. Obviously you wouldn't know how one could be gay and believe in God if you think God doesn't believe in gays.
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
OK, this is just plain weird. Liam, Mucus AND TSN all siding with Omega in the same thread? Did everybody step into the bizarro universe while I wasn't looking?
quote:Originally posted by Omega: PROOF!
The burden of proof is on you, actually. B)
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Why not?
Because homosexual couples can't produce babies, Liam. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!
quote:Originally posted by TSN: One is a relationship between consenting adults. The other is abuse of someone immature / something that can't fight back. So, that's the insane arguement, not the incest one.
Incest can be a relationship between consenting adults too, though.
*shudder*
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: So you are saying that a Down's Syndrome couple shouldn't be allowed to have children? Or people who are born deaf? Or who have a low IQ?
No, what he's saying is that the genetics issue doesn't enter into it when discussing gay marriages.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
considering your arguments throughout the rest of this thread, do you think that [oral sex] should be made legal (in secular law)?
Hell yeah!
So, wouldn't that mean none of us should ever marry? Is that a holdover from St. Paul?
Actually, Christ said that non-marriage was optimal as well, Matthew 18:8-12, but that particular aspect seems to allow for human variation on that particular matter.
But whenever I hang out with my religous radical freinds, I get dirty looks....and we wont even bring up the treatment I get at church when I consort with hookers...
I'm not sure if that's a joke or not, but any Christian giving you dirty looks isn't doing a very good job of being a Christian.
You're coming close to parroting the Catholic party line, set down by Paul, that Mary was a hooker and not Ieshua's (Jesus for the dogmatic) wife.
Paul set down what now? I mean, it's certainly Catholic dogma not supported by scripture in any way, but I'm not sure what Paul has to do with it.
That's what happens when you get a church founded by a jealous mysogynist.
Which church is that? I'm confused.
Eight years ago, when I was researching a sociology paper, it was illegal in 47 states out of the fifty to marry your first cousin. Now it's down to, like, 14
I seem to recall a recent study which indicated that the chances of birth defects arising from a mating between first cousins were something like 4% higher than normal, which may be part of the reason for the change in the laws.
I have trouble understanding what types of relationships can "work" and not be good for the people involved.
A child could conceivably enjoy having sex with an older sibling. The relationship works for both, but few would argue that it's not damaging. The only reason it works is lack of understanding of the consequences of the actions being taken.
Obviously you wouldn't know how one could be gay and believe in God if you think God doesn't believe in gays.
I'm fully aware that gays can be religious, but they can not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God while continuing to live a lifestyle said Bible describes as sinful. They're 100% incompatable.
The burden of proof is on you, actually. B)
ACTUALLY, it's on both of us. You say sexual orientation is akin to skin color, I say it's changable like all aspects of the psyche with enough effort. We've both made claims that we haven't backed up, so until one of us does I think we've reached an impasse. Now if only I had a couple hours of free time...
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quote:I'm fully aware that gays can be religious, but they can not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God while continuing to live a lifestyle said Bible describes as sinful. They're 100% incompatable.
Um....No. "Inspired" is a convienent way of saying "twisted to serve those in power".
Show me where God himself says that being gay is immoral. Not Jesus (because that just drags up the ol' debate of weither he was the offspring of God or just that everyone that believed was "a son of god" as inscribed on tombstones from the pre-christian era).
There's not a commandment about homosexuality after all but there's one for just about everything else.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
they can not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God while continuing to live a lifestyle said Bible describes as sinful. They're 100% incompatable.
My point exactly. Christianity does not welcome gays to be Christians, and that's why they turn to other belief systems in order to have a relationship with God.
You say sexual orientation is akin to skin color, I say it's changable like all aspects of the psyche with enough effort.
I do believe the mind is capable of changing what sexual orientation you are (as it is capable of making yourself sick, etc) given very compelling effort. However, social and religious pressures have been against this for ages, so what reason does a straight person have to WANT to be gay and stay that way?
A child could conceivably enjoy having sex with an older sibling. The relationship works for both, but few would argue that it's not damaging. The only reason it works is lack of understanding of the consequences of the actions being taken.
Again with the incestuous connection. The problem with this scenario is that one or both parties have a lack certain knowledge or teaching, the knowing of which would end the relationship. (Not to mention that kids who grow up together, whether they're related or not, are rarely sexually attracted to one another.) I was talking about gay couples who are obviously consentual and probably know what the Bible and the religionists say about them, and yet they stay together for years and years. I'm saying that only love creates that kind of bond.
posted
Is there anyone here who would actually support an ammendment banning gay marriages?
Now, my US law is slightly hazy, but isn't this sort of thing a matter for the states, rather than the federal government?
quote: So you are saying that a Down's Syndrome couple shouldn't be allowed to have children? Or people who are born deaf? Or who have a low IQ?
Interestingly, according to the House of Lords in Re F (Mental patient: Sterilisation) 1990 it is not unlawful to order the sterilisation of a person with serious mental disabilities. Lord Brandon: "In many cases... it will not only be lawful for doctors, on the grounds of necessity, to operate on or give medical treatment to adult patients disabled from giving their consent; it will be their duty to do so."
What this really comes down to is what is known in the UK as the Hart-Devlin debate; is the law there to enforce morality, or should a strictly liberal interpretation of its purpose be used, i.e. should the law merely be there to prevent citizens from causing harm to one another and infringing others rights?
Personally, I believe a certain amount of moral enforcement is necessary to maintain civilised and ordered society. But where should this morality be derived from? Commonly accepted norms? Religion? Or other sources? The position of homosexuality is difficult in countries with a strong Christian tradition (such as those most of the posters here come from). There is condemnation in the Old Testament but then there's the whole be tolerant thing later on.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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posted
Show me where God himself says that being gay is immoral.
Regardless of your opinion of inspiration, the actual definition means that something divinely inspired is in fact the word of God. Thus if you believe the Bible is divinely inspired, that belief is completely incompatable with the practice of homosexuality, exactly as I stated.
Christianity does not welcome gays to be Christians
Sure we do, in the same sense that we welcome thieves to be Christians. To be a Christian you have to change your lifestyle to actually follow Christ. That's not easy, but it is required by the very definition of Christianity.
However, social and religious pressures have been against this for ages, so what reason does a straight person have to WANT to be gay and stay that way?
Was that intended to be a joke, or are you making a serious point? I'm lost.
The problem with this scenario is that one or both parties have a lack certain knowledge or teaching, the knowing of which would end the relationship.
Which is EXACTLY like homosexuality and the will of God as stated in the Bible. People may act in a self-destructive way without knowing or believing that that way of life is self destructive. The only difference between the scenarios is that you personally acknowledge the incestuous abusive relationship to be damaging, but you don't recognize a homosexual one as such. If you believe that they are, the two are perfectly analogous.
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