posted
ANd yet, as a Catholic, you believe that the Pope (a failable man like any other) can somehow lessen the time you'll spend in Purgatory if you quit smoking? I'm not baiting you: I just cant fathom it any more than I can the ralieans. Divine power/wisdom in the hands of a single man is easily disproved by their own failings and frailties.
If the pontiff were really "in" with God that way (and thus infailable) it would at least explain why it took the church so long to aknowledge that the Earth revolves around the sun.... And that some of their priests are sexual predators.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
Well..yeah. That's been established for some time.
...not to offend your religion or anything, clone-baby.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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You'll need some serious papal indulgences to explain your laughter to the Messiah.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: ANd yet, as a Catholic, you believe that the Pope (a failable man like any other) can somehow lessen the time you'll spend in Purgatory if you quit smoking? I'm not baiting you: I just cant fathom it any more than I can the ralieans. Divine power/wisdom in the hands of a single man is easily disproved by their own failings and frailties.
If the pontiff were really "in" with God that way (and thus infailable) it would at least explain why it took the church so long to aknowledge that the Earth revolves around the sun.... And that some of their priests are sexual predators.
The Pope (himself, personally) cannot "lessen the time [I'll] spend in purgatory." Only God can do that. As a Catholic, what I believe is the Church and the Pope can act as agents of God. If you will indulge me, I elaborate. I believe heaven, whatever it is, is perfect. I am not perfect. Thus, before I enter perfection I believe I need to be "cleansed" of my imperfections. Now, if you will grant smoking is a harmful activity, and I hope you will, then whatever part of my soul that led me to smoke must be "cleansed" before entering heaven. However, what if I gave up smoking before I died because I realized it was wrong. Well, then, my soul will need that much less cleansing in purgatory. Thus, indulgences can be a given; you do not neccessarily need the middle man. However, if the Pope is so inspired, he may make what is a given indulgence explicit in order to inspire normally un-purgatory pondering Catholics (and others) to quite smoking. I hope I have made some sense.
It is also important for me to state the Church does not believe the Pope is divine, has divine power(s), or is completely infallible. As a Catholic I believe the Pope is (one of) God's representatives on Earth, chosen through a divinely inspired meeting of Church leaders [Cardinals]. I will be the first to grant that it is patently obvious the above described ideal has not always been the case; politics has obviously, unfortunately, played a part in the selection of past popes. After all, as I think we all agree, no man is perfect. Where the Pope is infallible is in matters regarding the Catholic Church, the faith. And that does not mean if he opens his mouth and what comes out includes something religious what he has just said is infallible. For example, the Church's official stance on homosexual-ity/-orientation is that it is not a choice. I believe the Pope has been quoted as saying he thinks homosexual-ity/-orientation is a sickness, that is, he views it in a negative light, but he still thinks it is not a choice. However, he has never said his (negative) opinion on homosexual-ity/-orientation is infallible. Thus, I agree with the Church and the Pope that homosexual-ity/-orientation is not a choice, however, I do not view it in a negative light, and there is nothing "wrong" in the eyes of the Church with my view. The Pope has to explicitly state when he is speaking as the infallible head of the Church. It rarely happens. Therefore, I do not think a pope's imperfections, if he is truly the divinely inspired head of the Church, are proof that he is not infallible in matters regarding the Church.
Jason, I get the feeling this all strikes you as silly. However, I hope the length and way at which I have discussed this with you shows I truly believe in what I have written, and not just in a mindless sheep way, but in a way that shows at least some elementary, rudimentary understanding of what indeed I do believe. And if you do view Catholics and Raelians (and I am not saying you do) on the same level thank you at least for discussing in a and a manner, rather than in a manner.
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quote:Originally posted by Raw Cadet: Jason, I get the feeling this all strikes you as silly. However, I hope the length and way at which I have discussed this with you shows I truly believe in what I have written, and not just in a mindless sheep way, but in a way that shows at least some elementary, rudimentary understanding of what indeed I do believe. And if you do view Catholics and Raelians (and I am not saying you do) on the same level thank you at least for discussing in a and a manner, rather than in a manner.
I'm not equating Catholics with Ralieans, no....not directly. The primal urge to be a part of a clan or group is the same though. And I DO think the added ceremony and ritual the catholic church has added to the basic faith Jesus taught is silly, yes.
You make a good argument and the "soul cleansing" thing is a bit clearer now (simmlar to the Jewish faith but not exactly). It's not so much the core belief system that I have diffuclty fathoming (after all, who wouldnt want a paradise to go to after death?) but rather the blind obediance to scriptures that stem from a far less enlightened time and the feverent refusal to re-examine one's own beliefs and their origins.
While I'm not calling you a sheep, I do believe the the theory "the masses are asses" : that the sense of self-rightousness that comes from millions of followers thinking alike is one of- if not the most- detremental factors in trying to eliminate strife in the world.
After all, millions of Islamist fundamerntalists cant be wrong, right?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: While I'm not calling you a sheep, I do believe the the theory "the masses are asses" : that the sense of self-rightousness that comes from millions of followers thinking alike is one of- if not the most- detremental factors in trying to eliminate strife in the world.
Of course, "self-rightious belief in their own opinon" is a description that can be targetted at a lot of aethiests too.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
True....but athiests tend not to group together to further their own beliefs.
And athiests declaring a "holy war" would kinda defeat the purpose.
[ March 06, 2004, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I'm not equating Catholics with Ralieans, no....not directly.
Thank you. Though perhaps we Catholics should take a cue from the Raelians and use DNA from the Shroud Of Turin to clone whomever it belonged to in order to find out once and for all.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: And I DO think the added ceremony and ritual the catholic church has added to the basic faith Jesus taught is silly, yes.
I like to think of most ceremonies, whether religious or secular (say, royalty), as traditions, and worth maintaining, even if some of the ceremonies can be "silly (as long as the ceremony does not overshadow the meaning behind the ceremony)."
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: It's not so much the core belief system that I have diffuclty fathoming (after all, who wouldnt want a paradise to go to after death?) but rather the blind obediance to scriptures that stem from a far less enlightened time and the feverent refusal to re-examine one's own beliefs and their origins.
It is not all about the afterlife; believe me or not, assuming I live the rest of my life as a faithful, practicing Catholic, and it turns out there is no afterlife I would have no regrets. And let me make it absolutely clear I have always been encouraged to examine, and re-examine my own beliefs and faith. Indeed, one of the most important papal encyclicals of the twentieth century, HUMANAE VITAE, states that ultimately what is right and wrong is determined by one's own (well developed) conscience. For example, the Church teaches it is not wrong to defend oneself. Indeed, the Church suggests some persons (such as a parent) have a moral imperative do defend themselves because of those who depend on them. However, I simply do not believe I could ever feel justified in killing another person, even in complete self defense. Thus, for me, personally, it is always wrong to kill. I have no doubt many others could stand before God with no compunction about having killed someone who threatened them, or their families.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: While I'm not calling you a sheep, I do believe the the theory "the masses are asses" : that the sense of self-rightousness that comes from millions of followers thinking alike is one of- if not the most- detremental factors in trying to eliminate strife in the world
I agree with your theory; look at the mass of United States citizens: against gay marriage, approved of going to war with Iraq, in favor of capital punishment, etc.--the list is endless. Groupthink is a scourge to many institutions, not just religion. And if I have come accross as self-rightous then my writing skills have been woefully inadequate, as that was not my intent; I firmly believe all men are equal in the eyes of God.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: After all, millions of Islamist fundamerntalists cant be wrong, right?
Oh yes, they can. All fundamentalists are "wrong," Christian, Islamic, or otherwise. Jason, I agree with many of your beefs regarding religion, and there are many blindly obedient, fervently refusing to re-examine their own beliefs people in every religion. Some religions seem to amount to little more than demanding blind obedience, where examination of beliefs and their origins is heresy: such is fundamentalism. However, as I hope I am conveying in some way, Roman Catholicism is not fundamentalist. Fundamentalists have given religion a bad name, thus, I can be overly sensitive to even a hint of an accusation that either I am-or my religion is-fundamentalist.
P.S. Ask any fundamentalist Christian if Catholics are, too, and no doubt they will confirm my position (although as Bush and company often court "the (non-existant) Catholic vote," and fundamentalists always back Bush, they may not be willing to reveal there true contempt for Catholics until after the election. However, let me assure you on more than one occasion when my Catholic high school dismissed there was a pamphlet passing, sandwhich board wearing fundamentalist out on the sidewalk, assuring us Catholic high school students we are all going to hell. I assume he received a lot of replies along the lines of "see you there."
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quote:Originally posted by TSN: I hate to tell you this, Jason, but Liam can't spell, either.
LOL! But at leat I'm still within my "edit window" so even gross spelling errors on my part can be overcome....if pointed out quickly, that is.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I'm not equating Catholics with Ralieans, no....not directly.
Thank you. Though perhaps we Catholics should take a cue from the Raelians and use DNA from the Shroud Of Turin to clone whomever it belonged to in order to find out once and for all.
Ohhhh yeah. That'd go over real well.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: After all, millions of Islamist fundamerntalists cant be wrong, right? Oh yes, they can. All fundamentalists are "wrong," Christian, Islamic, or otherwise.
Exctly: Most "fundamentalists" of today would be considered decadent sinners by standards of the puritans of old or by Jesus' original followers themselves.
All organized religion is all about not only about sharing common beliefs with others but condemning all other beliefs and (often) trying to "convert" others to a particular set of beliefs.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
What gets me about the Catholic religion is that I seem to need to have an intermediary to talk to Christ/God....
Even my principal in high school had an open door policy.....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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posted
I think you have to talk to their rep if you want an immeadeate answer from God.
Think of it like a moviestar's press secretary signing their autograph because your idol's just too busy to deal with you.
Kinda a jip, i know.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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"Though perhaps we Catholics should take a cue from the Raelians and use DNA from the Shroud Of Turin to clone whomever it belonged to in order to find out once and for all."
I realize it was a joke, but... find out what? What the guy looked like? I mean, if all you wanted to prove was whether the blood came from a 2000-year-old Hebrew or a 600-year-old Frenchman, it wouldn't be necessary to clone him.
Of course, the main problem is that all the DNA would have long decayed by now, I'm sure.
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