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Author Topic: Bigger than a mere scandal...
Highway Hoss
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Let's face it: the linchpin of all the tensions in the Mideast is the Israeli-Palestinian question. Until that is dealt with, there will always be a potential for violence in the area.

Besdies the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, many Arabs are enraged by Bush's one sided support for Sharon's hard line policies. This is a refutation of our previous policies of being an "honest broker" for peace in the area. Certainly though Arafat and the Palestinians are not blameless either; Arafat's unwillingness to crack down on militants in the West Bank only gives Israel justification for its hard line policies.

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The best way to predict the future is to create it.

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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It appears there is more to the story.

It seems that Mr. Rumsfeld was not being totally honest at the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing as he tried to deflect responsibility from Mr. Bush by indicating that he had not "elevate a matter" of prisoner abuse to the "to the highest levels".

quote:
Let me be clear: I failed to recognize how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress.
Was he saying Mr. Bush just didn't know? That Mr. Bush wasn't in the loop.

If so, Mr. Rumsfeld is contradicted by Colin Powell.

quote:
Powell said that he, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld kept Bush "fully informed of the concerns that were being expressed, not in specific details, but in general terms."

Mark Matthews, Baltimore Sun

Which brought about a response from Fred Kaplan at Slate.

quote:
So much for Rumsfeld's protective claim, at last week's hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, that he had failed to bring the matter to the president's attention. No wonder Bush, in turn, rode out to the Pentagon and praised his servant-secretary for doing a "superb" job.
But, of course there is more.

Colin Powell not only put Mr. Bush in the loop about the International Committee of the Red Cross's allegations, but he kept him informed.

quote:
"We kept the president informed of the concerns that were raised by the ICRC and other international organizations as part of my regular briefings of the president, and advised him that we had to follow these issues, and when we got notes sent to us or reports sent to us ... we had to respond to them, and the president certainly made it clear that that's what he expected us to do," Powell said.


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Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Gosh, a whole day and a half and Rob hasn't used this as proof that he is always right and everyone else is always wrong yet. . .

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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quote:
Colleagues of the former editor said Mr Morgan had been called to the office of Trinity Mirror's chief executive, Sly Bailey, in Canary Wharf yesterday afternoon and ordered to issue a public apology. It is understood that he refused and was immediately escorted from the building by security.
HA!
They literally threw him out on his ass!
Priceless.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Wraith
Zen Riot Activist
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Not only that but he wasn't even allowed to clear his desk. Which is very satisfying; I never liked the man anyway. Came across as an arrogant little shit. I'm looking forward to the next edition of Private Eye... [Big Grin]

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"I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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Anyone named Sly has such a head start on the road toward chief executive-dom it's almost not fair for the rest of the executives.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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Bigger than a mere scandal indeed...

Pardon the long-ish nature of this post, but it is a Newsweek article and hard to truncate.

quote:
The Roots of Torture
The road to Abu Ghraib began after 9/11, when Washington wrote new rules to fight a new kind of war. A NEWSWEEK investigation

NEW YORK - The focus of the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal shifted Sunday with a report in Newsweek magazine on whether the Bush administration established a legal basis that opened the door for the mistreatment.

Newsweek reports that, as a way to prevent a repeat of the events of Sept. 11, 2001, �Bush, along with Defense Secretary [Donald] Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft, signed off on a secret system of detention and interrogation that opened the door to such methods.�

The story begins in the months after September 11, when a small band of conservative lawyers within the Bush administration staked out a forward-leaning legal position. The attacks by Al Qaeda on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, these lawyers said, had plunged the country into a new kind of war. It was a conflict against a vast, outlaw, international enemy in which the rules of war, international treaties and even the Geneva Conventions did not apply. These positions were laid out in secret legal opinions drafted by lawyers from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, and then endorsed by the Department of Defense and ultimately by White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, according to copies of the opinions and other internal legal memos obtained by NEWSWEEK.

----

Cut out of the process, as usual, was Colin Powell's State Department. So were military lawyers for the uniformed services. When State Department lawyers first saw the Yoo memo, "we were horrified," said one. As State saw it, the Justice position would place the United States outside the orbit of international treaties it had championed for years. Two days after the Yoo memo circulated, the State Department's chief legal adviser, William Howard Taft IV, fired a memo to Yoo calling his analysis "seriously flawed." State's most immediate concern was the unilateral conclusion that all captured Taliban were not covered by the Geneva Conventions. "In previous conflicts, the United States has dealt with tens of thousands of detainees without repudiating its obligations under the Conventions," Taft wrote. "I have no doubt we can do so here, where a relative handful of persons is involved."

The White House was undeterred. By Jan. 25, 2002, according to a memo obtained by NEWSWEEK, it was clear that Bush had already decided that the Geneva Conventions did not apply at all, either to the Taliban or Al Qaeda. In the memo, which was written to Bush by Gonzales, the White House legal counsel told the president that Powell had "requested that you reconsider that decision." Gonzales then laid out startlingly broad arguments that anticipated any objections to the conduct of U.S. soldiers or CIA interrogators in the future. "As you have said, the war against terrorism is a new kind of war," Gonzales wrote to Bush. "The nature of the new war places a high premium on other factors, such as the ability to quickly obtain information from captured terrorists and their sponsors in order to avoid further atrocities against American civilians." Gonzales concluded in stark terms: "In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions."

Gonzales also argued that dropping Geneva would allow the president to "preserve his flexibility" in the war on terror. His reasoning? That U.S. officials might otherwise be subject to war-crimes prosecutions under the Geneva Conventions. Gonzales said he feared "prosecutors and independent counsels who may in the future decide to pursue unwarranted charges" based on a 1996 U.S. law that bars "war crimes," which were defined to include "any grave breach" of the Geneva Conventions. As to arguments that U.S. soldiers might suffer abuses themselves if Washington did not observe the conventions, Gonzales argued wishfully to Bush that "your policy of providing humane treatment to enemy detainees gives us the credibility to insist on like treatment for our soldiers."

When Powell read the Gonzales memo, he "hit the roof," says a State source. Desperately seeking to change Bush's mind, Powell fired off his own blistering response the next day, Jan. 26, and sought an immediate meeting with the president. The proposed anti-Geneva Convention declaration, he warned, "will reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practice" and have "a high cost in terms of negative international reaction." Powell won a partial victory: On Feb. 7, 2002, the White House announced that the United States would indeed apply the Geneva Conventions to the Afghan war�but that Taliban and Qaeda detainees would still not be afforded prisoner-of-war status. The White House's halfway retreat was, in the eyes of State Department lawyers, a "hollow" victory for Powell that did not fundamentally change the administration's position. It also set the stage for the new interrogation procedures ungoverned by international law.

What Bush seemed to have in mind was applying his broad doctrine of pre-emption to interrogations: to get information that could help stop terrorist acts before they could be carried out. This was justified by what is known in counterterror circles as the "ticking time bomb" theory�the idea that when faced with an imminent threat by a terrorist, almost any method is justified, even torture.

With the legal groundwork laid, Bush began to act. First, he signed a secret order granting new powers to the CIA. According to knowledgeable sources, the president's directive authorized the CIA to set up a series of secret detention facilities outside the United States, and to question those held in them with unprecedented harshness. Washington then negotiated novel "status of forces agreements" with foreign governments for the secret sites. These agreements gave immunity not merely to U.S. government personnel but also to private contractors. (Asked about the directive last week, a senior administration official said, "We cannot comment on purported intelligence activities.")

John Barry, Michael Hirsh and Michael Isikoff, Newsweek

*Emphasis added.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Man.....if only I could vote for Powell!
A good guy serving a bunch of total fuckers.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Highway Hoss
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Jay here's an article from Reuters that related to that Newsweek article:
quote:
US Pushes World Court Immunity Amid Iraq Scandal
by Carol Giacomo
�WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is pursuing its campaign to protect Americans from International Criminal Court jurisdiction even as it deals with the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal that may involve some of the very war crimes the court was created to handle.
So far 89 countries have signed agreements with Washington promising that Americans accused of grave international offenses, including soldiers charged with war crimes, will be returned to U.S. jurisdiction so their cases can be decided by fellow Americans rather than international jurists.
Other states may soon be added, officials said this week.
"It's never been our argument that Americans are angels," one senior U.S. official told Reuters.
"Our argument has been if Americans commit war crimes or human rights violations, we will handle them. And we will," he added.
The permanent court was established in 2002 after ad hoc institutions dealt with war crimes in Yugoslavia and Rwanda.
But President Bush opposed it and insisted on so-called Article 98 agreements under which countries guaranteed not to surrender Americans to ICC prosecution.
With military and civilians on peacekeeping and humanitarian missions in 100 countries, Washington must preserve its independence to defend its national interests worldwide, U.S. officials said.
This position is coming under new scrutiny following publication of photographs showing U.S. army soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.
The photos have fueled international outrage and severely damaged U.S. credibility. U.S. officials promise the guilty will be punished but rights experts worry prosecutions will focus on lower-ranking soldiers, not their superiors.

WAR CRIMES PROSECUTION
"The political reality is that its going to be harder now to persuade democratically elected leaders to immunize the U.S. military from war crimes prosecution," said Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.
While some states may be more reluctant to sign the bilateral immunity agreements, it is unclear they can avoid it, said Anthony Dworkin, London-based editor of the Crimes of War Project Web site .
U.S. law prohibits military aid to countries that do not sign immunity accords and Washington has used this lever to exert "enormous pressure" on countries to sign, he said.
Some legal experts disagree with the use of Article 98 agreements and question government insistence that U.S. military interrogation rules in Iraq and elsewhere comply with the Geneva Convention.
Washington "is reluctant to test its interpretation" before international jurists, Dworkin said.
"All of us are appalled by those prisoner abuse photos and we need to address them," a U.S. official said.

IMHO I have never seen an Administration so hellbent on promoting the view of "Might makes Right" in international affairs. Even Nixon would never have so flagrantly flouted international Law and display such contempt for the UN..

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The best way to predict the future is to create it.

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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There's a William Howard Taft IV? I didn't even know there was a William Howard Taft II.

"Man.....if only I could vote for Powell!
A good guy serving a bunch of total fuckers."

I almost have respect for the guy. Certainly more than any of the other big names in the administration. But I sure am confused by how complicit he's been in everything. Loyalty is really no excuse. If he thinks that what they're doing is wrong, he should say so, explicitly. If he doesn't do so, one can only assume he's okay with it all.

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Really, that's a matter of how hard they're fucking him:
If they tell him something (like there's WMD in Iraq) and he tells congress and reporters, then it looks like HE'S a liar to the world while Chaney and Bush kick back on the ranch.

His careeer military background makes it unlikely he'll get pissed and tell reporters "The president's a lying sack of crap!".

As funny as that would be to watch.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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That, and his total neutrality on almost every issue.

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".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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One man's "neutrality" is another's "profesionalism".
After all,he cant just make up policy as he goes:
That's Bush's job!

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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"His careeer military background makes it unlikely he'll get pissed and tell reporters 'The president's a lying sack of crap!'."

Well, that's what I'm saying. If, at his point, he doesn't do that, he's pretty much just as guilty as the rest of them.

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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I think what we�re seeing now as regards Mr. Powell is an attempt to tidy up his reputation.

I read something once, I can�t remember where, about how Mr. Bush gets other people to fall on the sword for him. In essence, he gets other people to do things that may come back later to ruin a reputation, so he doesn�t have to.

Mr. Powell, long in the military, may or may not have been doing the �I�m a good soldier doing the bidding of the president� routine, but his reputation has been muddied by his association with, and doing the work of, the Bush administration.

It�s been said that if he truly believed he as being taken advantage of, or that he was knowingly doing things for the administration that were wrong, he should have resigned some time ago rather than just go along with the program.

Who knows.

[ May 17, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
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