quote:Originally posted by Veers: Well, under Al Gore, we'd probably still have had 9/11, and Afghanistan, too, if he didn't bore the Taliban into giving up bin Laden with his ultimatum speech. But we wouldn't be in Iraq.
I agree- 9/11 would have still happened: it was planned far in advance and set to have happened several months prior as it turns out.
I dont think we'd have invaded Iraq.
I do think that we'd be in a more vulnerable position for further attacks today if Gore was President though- part of what emboldened Al Quieda was the total lack of a response for the bombing of the USS Cole (something Bush's office also failed to address).
I think we'd still have something like the Patriot Act to trample our rights (although the dems would've wisely called something less inane).
I dont think we'd have any military morale under Gore: morale was at it's lowest under Clinton and Gore is not "Mr. Charisma". It's tough for a CO to order something unpopular when no one respects them and no one I know of in the military respected Clinton or Gore.
Would we have invaded Afghanistan? Probably not. There would've been no coallition for it (despite intel. placing Al Queida there), I think we'd have limited retaliation to airstrikes and sanctions.
Just my .02
The real question is: "What will Kerry do if elected?" What do you guys think he'll do (terrorism-wise) that Busco is not doing now?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I thought it was only leaders who didn't get where they are by being elected who have to worry about retaining the support of the military. Oh, wait. . . 8)
It is strange his face while sitting there as the teacher drums the words out of the students. I wish the video was less choppy so I could see him more clearly. He seems confused or bewildered or something. Which is a perfectly natural reaction. Makes him seem almost human.
After hearing of the second crash, I distinctly remember thinking about Die Hard 2 when the bad guys futz with the Ground Control computers to crash a plane. I figured some kind of malfunction or something like that. Something rational.
OTOH, no one at any point had handed me a briefing suggesting that Osama Bin Laden was planning an attack on US soil which might involve flying airplanes into buildings, so maybe I could be excused. Still it's quite a thing to be told and I'm not certain how much difference that five minutes would have changed anything.
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Actually, it was Clinton's military that helped us win in Afghanistan...so we should at least be giving him some credit. It was also the training in Kosovo that helped some of the soldiers there.
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Actually, it was Clinton's military that helped us win in Afghanistan...so we should at least be giving him some credit. It was also the training in Kosovo that helped some of the soldiers there.
Kosovo was only about two years late to help anyone though.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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"What do you guys think he'll do (terrorism-wise) that Busco is not doing now?"
Well, since just about anything would be an improvement...
That's just the point- there's a LOT that could be even worse- I want to hear Kerry's plan (something not already outlined by the Bush admin).
It's easy to say "anything would be an improvement..." but without a solid course of action, things will actually get worse.
That's not to say we should'nt vote for Kerry rather than Bush, but we (as voters) need to make clear that a new course of action is required. Mabye it's just the obviously one-sided commercial coverage in this campaign but all I see Kerry talking about is healthcare.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:...but all I see Kerry talking about is healthcare.
And this is unimportant?
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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So, did you even try to find the information? I admit that I haven't read it myself, but it only took me about thirty seconds to find.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
"Plan to making America Stronger and Safer". Sounds nice. I support Kerry, although I somewhat suspected that plan-heading to be flanked by the pop-up sign "Free Birdseed!"
Mind you, I've just seen all web-episodes of "Edward the Less", so I'll be inappropriately silly for a short while forward.
Registered: Aug 1999
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So, did you even try to find the information? I admit that I haven't read it myself, but it only took me about thirty seconds to find.
It's all the same jargon as Bush but with the (good) addition of "Reforming Domestic Intelligence Many of the examinations of 9/11 have raised serious questions about whether the FBI is the right agency to conduct domestic intelligence collection and analysis. Kerry believes that the Bush Administration�s proposed Terrorist Threat Integration Center, (TTIC) will not be able to do the job, given its dependence on other agencies' analysts, the bureaucratic divide created between people identifying vulnerabilities and individuals charged with eliminating those vulnerabilities, and the number of people in charge which could complicate efforts to work with the state and local governments on information sharing. John Kerry believes that simplifying the bureaucratic charts makes more sense. America needs an independent intelligence capability that focuses explicitly on domestic intelligence."
That's worth voting for at least.
His "Orange Alert" idea suffers from the same problems as Bush's- that local police are supposed to "heighten their vigillance" during alerts yet there's no clear idea where the money for additional police or their overtime are supposed to come from.
Thanks for the link though my point was that I've not seen anything of these plans on TV, in ads or (heavean forbid) in interviews iwth Kerry.
Yeah, healthcare is imporntant but it's not going to be the top issue in this election.
If it sounds like I'm being overly critical of Kerry, it's just that I DONT want Bush to win. And I think he will at this point.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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So, did you even try to find the information? I admit that I haven't read it myself, but it only took me about thirty seconds to find.
It's all the same jargon as Bush but with the (good) addition of "Reforming Domestic Intelligence":
quote:Many of the examinations of 9/11 have raised serious questions about whether the FBI is the right agency to conduct domestic intelligence collection and analysis. Kerry believes that the Bush Administration�s proposed Terrorist Threat Integration Center, (TTIC) will not be able to do the job, given its dependence on other agencies' analysts, the bureaucratic divide created between people identifying vulnerabilities and individuals charged with eliminating those vulnerabilities, and the number of people in charge which could complicate efforts to work with the state and local governments on information sharing. John Kerry believes that simplifying the bureaucratic charts makes more sense. America needs an independent intelligence capability that focuses explicitly on domestic intelligence."
Reforming/re-structuring intel worth voting for at least. Kinda vague as to exactly how it'll be accomplished though....
His "Orange Alert" idea suffers from the same problems as Bush's- that local police are supposed to "heighten their vigillance" during alerts yet there's no clear idea where the money for additional police or their overtime are supposed to come from.
Thanks for the link though my point was that I've not seen anything of these plans on TV, in ads or (heavean forbid) in interviews iwth Kerry.
Yeah, healthcare is imporntant but it's not going to be the top issue in this election.
If it sounds like I'm being overly critical of Kerry, it's just that I DONT want Bush to win. And I think he will at this point.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If it sounds like I'm being overly critical of Kerry, it's just that I DONT want Bush to win. And I think he will at this point.
Here's where I think you're wrong:
Mr. Bush will have a four-year record to run on that he can't run away from. And of that record, everything is fair game.
environmental policy
energy policy
tax-cuts for the wealthy
jobs
the underfunding No Child Left Behind
preemptive invasion
secret detention of American citizens for unspecified periods
That's all there for Mr. Kerry to hold up to scrutiny. And I don't think Mr. Bush's record holds up very well.
I can't wait for the debates. I don't think Mr. Bush will get the free pass he got from Mr. Gore if he tries to play the 'ah, shucks' bumpkin.
Mr. Bush and his administration is on the verge of imploding and Mr. Kerry hasn't really even started serious campaigning yet.
Sure there is a long time to go yet, but the curtain is starting to fall and reveal just how incompetent this administration is. When the campaign season comes into full swing, Mr. Kerry may just need to get that curtain a bit of a nudge and let the light shine in.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
posted
It's easy to say "anything would be an improvement..."
Yes. And you're NEVER SUPPOSED TO SAY THAT! It's right up there with "what could possibly go wrong?"
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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