quote: "Not much more"? Since when is it any more damaging than tobacco? For that matter, since when isn't tobacco more damaging than marijuana?
And if I said "marijuana isn't any more damaging than tobacco," someone might ask me to proove it, which I'm not inclined to do. So I took the conservative approach. Please criticize something important next time so I don't have to give an inane explanation like this one.
quote:Originally posted by Omega: So you pick and choose what Old testament laws are still applicable and what is outdated. Is there some scripture that describes how this is accomplished? On what criteria is some part of what was considered God's Law now outdated?
None of the law is outdated. All of it's good for learning about God's intentions for human life, even if the specific commands are no longer binding.
You still did not answer the question of WHO decides what law is "no longer binding"?
I cant recall Jesus saying anything to that effect at all. Has there ever even been a official decree against the practice of slavery or the burning of witches from the Roman church? I doubt it: those laws making it acceptable could come in handy again some day.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Applying the teachings of Jesus requires wisdom: knowing what actions produce good results and what actions don't, and applying that knowledge. All the love and good intentions in the universe don't do squat if you don't know what will help people.
And if you do not let people do the actions that may lead to undesired results, how will they know that it won't? Sure, you could tell them, and I'm sure parents have told their kids what's good and what's not since the beginning of time, and we know how well that usually works. Experience is the fastest road to wisdom. Some people just need the bad experiences to realize it's not what they want.
quote:If love is doing what's best for someone else and placing their well-being above your own, which I would argue it is
Does loving someone not involve letting someone decide what's best for themselves? Or is your good intentions more important than their free will?
And no, that's not my definition of love. Those might be a few of the effects of love, but I wouldn't say that's all it is.
quote:That does not derrive naturally from your definition of "forgiveness". The only case in whcih forgiveness is not required is if not wrong has been done. Thus the only way no forgiveness would be required is if nothing is ever considered wrong.... then your argument would require that there being no right and wrong is what's best for everyone.
You've hit upon something there. I don't believe in absolute right or wrong. However, I do believe in what works and what doesn't, depending on who you want to be, and that's where I think laws and morality came from. People found out that murder, stealing, and eating pork did not work if they wanted to have peace and health, so they made laws or told people "because God said so" to make other people do what they're doing.
I know you don't agree, and that's great because it's free will at work. But you obviously know that certain things you call "sins" do not work for us, which is why I pointed out how fear of sex does not work if you want to stop abortions, because fear of rejection is greater (in fact, it's the number one fear). That was a little convoluted so I'll rephrase it this way: fear of sex produces rejection, and fear of rejection produces abortion in pregnant teens. For any effort to end abortion to WORK, it must begin at the top.
Again, I reiterate that wrongness is a judgment based on certain conditions, and I find that to be incompatible with unconditional love. I'm not saying that, if you had a pregnant unmarried daughter, you should go, "congratulations! When's it due?" But it is more loving to know that she's already living with the consequences (a baby and all that comes with it) and love her all the same.
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Roman church=church in Rome.
Roman CATHOLIC Church=Catholic Church.
Roman CATHOLIC Church=Catholic Church= basis for all other Christian denominations, including what Omega believes in.
...and still does not answer the question of who detirmines what's valid from the Old Testament and what "no longer applies" to Christians.
The answer is simple: he can't tell me who's made that decision for him on what to believe. ...besides, The many editors of the bible have chosen not to sign their work.
It would take some degree of heresy to determine for oneself which of God's laws he can safely ignore.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I'm just going to address two more topics I care to talk about at length.
Education -- I think public schools have bigger problems than funding and prayers. The education system is obsolete. The classroom setting rarely inspires learning. Standardized testing (as well as most exams) tests people's testing skills more than their actual knowledge (why do we need to know elimination tricks on the SATs?). I personally know at least two people who are perfectly intelligent beings who suck at taking tests, while I excel at tests (more adrenaline = more focused) and do average in homework. As I said before, we also need more financial education from an early age. It is ridiculous that schools don't teach you how to manage the one thing you have to use in life. We also need to admit that knowledge is not more important than character and teach subjects based on values, such as responsibility, honesty, or love. More funding is not going to help without changing the system, and the quickest way to change the obsolete is to provide economic competition (as we know is part of a free market). In other words, parents who want to send their kids to private schools should be able to get vouchers, or at least not have to pay the part of their taxes that goes to public school funding.
Care of the poor -- Recently, I went to a seminar called Understand Men 101 taught by this woman named Alison Armstrong. The seminar was really good and eye opening, but what I am reminded of is her background. She really likes to get to the bottom of things, and her career started out with studying what causes homelessness. (She started the Orange County Homeless Issues Task Force and the Orange County Summit for Children) In her words: "Half the homeless in Orange County are children. And the root of homelessness for many adults lies in childhood -- things that didn't happen that should have, like learning to read; and things that shouldn't have happened but did, like abuse. In 1994, my personal compulsion to understand men converged with my personal and professional commitment to children. I realized one of the best ways I can help children is by altering the way their parents relate to each other. By shifting those relationships from the adversarial context we inherited, to the partnerships that are now possible, parents can create home environments in which their children flourish." And so, she conluded, improving relationship between couples will end homelessness.
[ July 18, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Tora Ziyal ]
Actually, the Roman Catholic church = the Roman Catholic church. There are other denominations that call themselves "catholic", also. "Catholic" means "universal". So, any religion that calls itself "catholic" is already lying to you just in its name.
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Yet they all spawned from the same seed, follow 99.5% of the same doctrine and dispite their own squabbles, preach the same party-line. Do ANY of the denominations know who did their bible editing?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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You still did not answer the question of WHO decides what law is "no longer binding"?
I cant recall Jesus saying anything to that effect at all.
Well, if he didn't say the law isn't applicable and you assume it IS, then you get all sorts of fun stuff like all of us having to observe Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. Not to mention sacrifice laws when sacrifice has been rendered moot. The church agreed on the answer to that one in the mid first century: that Jewish law is not binding, but still useful to study because it can provide understanding of God's will when taken in its context.
And if you do not let people do the actions that may lead to undesired results, how will they know that it won't?
Well, hopefully the people being taught will by that point have been instilled with the wisdom required to know that it's a good idea to listen to people with more experience than you. Not everyone has to learn the hard way.
Experience is the fastest road to wisdom.
Actually, no, the fastest road would require little experience at all, just listening to people around you would be much faster. So long as you keep in mind, of course, that they COULD be wrong.
Some people just need the bad experiences to realize it's not what they want.
Yup. Sometimes life has to hit certain people over the head on certain matters. My point is that when young people don't listen to the wiser people around them, said wiser people should forgive them when they realize their mistakes.
Does loving someone not involve letting someone decide what's best for themselves? Or is your good intentions more important than their free will?
Love requires you to allow for free will under most circumstances (unless you're talking about a child, in which case letting them stick a fork in a power socket because they want to is a Bad Idea). But love also requires you to TELL someone the consequences of their future actions, or at least ensure that they know. They can do what they want, but if you don't tell them what will happen if they do you're just being neglegent.
I won't quote your entire opinion on love and morality, Tora, it's quite long and you already know I don't believe in moral relativism. But your last setnence, at least, is exactly what I'm saying already. "it is more loving to know that she's already living with the consequences (a baby and all that comes with it) and love her all the same."
Roman CATHOLIC Church=Catholic Church= basis for all other Christian denominations, including what Omega believes in.
I hope you mean historical basis. Doctrinal basis, no freaking way.
...and still does not answer the question of who detirmines what's valid from the Old Testament and what "no longer applies" to Christians.
Who said ANY still apply?
*reads Tora's next post*
You wanna be my secretary of Education?
I'm not sure about the replacement of standardized testing and the classroom setting. But hey, you propose a better system and I'll read it. I certainly agree with the need for financial education. Not so sure about teaching moral values in a school, to tell you the truth, parents would do a better job of that, and you'd have a question of what values to teach. But then, parents frequently DON'T do that job. Something to think about. I think I agree with vouchers in concept. It would have to be implemented VERY well, with enough flexibility in the public schools to allow them to function if a large number of students withdrew and went elsewhere. But it's doable.
By shifting those relationships from the adversarial context we inherited, to the partnerships that are now possible, parents can create home environments in which their children flourish.
What a brilliantly original concept this woman has! Though I'd love to know why partnerships are NOW possible, as if they weren't before...
That won't end homelessness, for sure. But it'll help.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: [QB] You still did not answer the question of WHO decides what law is "no longer binding"?
I cant recall Jesus saying anything to that effect at all.
Well, if he didn't say the law isn't applicable and you assume it IS, then you get all sorts of fun stuff like all of us having to observe Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. Not to mention sacrifice laws when sacrifice has been rendered moot. The church agreed on the answer to that one in the mid first century: that Jewish law is not binding, but still useful to study because it can provide understanding of God's will when taken in its context.
So you follow some of the revisions of First Century MEN. Not anything God said, but people -with their own agendas and prejeduces.
quote: Experience is the fastest road to wisdom.
Actually, no, the fastest road would require little experience at all, just listening to people around you would be much faster. So long as you keep in mind, of course, that they COULD be wrong.
Um....no. Wisdom is knowledge gained through experience. Simply being told something is the "wise" thing to do does not make you wise- understanding the reasons behind your choices is wisdom. Anything else is just empty knowledge.
Reading about life is not the same as truly living it.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
So, wait... Yahweh, in his heart, really wants us to burn the witches and stone the gays, but he's just decided he's not going to hold us to it anymore?
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No. Yahweh, in his heart, really thinks witchcraft, pre-marital-, extra-marital-, and homo-sexual activity are Bad Things. He told the Jews to stone or burn people involved in such activities, which is how we know he considers those activities Bad. We learn from Christ that stoning and burning, however, are not the integral and universally necessary response to their being Bad. See the woman caught in adultery. "I don't condemn you either. Go! From now on don't sin." He didn't deny that she had sinned, but he forgave her and sent her on her way to do what she would from that point with what she'd learned.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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