posted
Abortion rights has fuck all to do with the holocaust in any way. YOu might as well try to equate it with the Alamo...
Isn't taking away a person's right to govern their own body (particularly one violated by rape) dehumanizing?
What galls me is that what must be such a personal and private choice for any mother is being narrowly defined by men that will never have to make that call.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Jason, to me, it has everything to do with the holocaust, because I see unborn babies as possessing the same human rights as you or I.
Reproduction is about creating new life. As soon as that new life is present within the mother, it ceases to be about "her" body, and becomes about "their" bodies. So, no, I don't see making this form of murder illegal dehumanizing in any way.
Jason, it is not a clearly-defined male vs. female issue. It is not as though men are pro-life and women are pro-choice. You seem to suggest that the pro-life position is being imposed by one gender on the other when that is NOT the case.
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
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Cartman
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posted
As soon as that new life is present within the mother, it ceases to be about "her" body, and becomes about "their" bodies.
I see. And the fact that the mother might not have had any choice in the creation and presence of said life (as in the case of RAPE) should therefore be ignored, then, like this law MANDATES? Tell me, how is that NOT imposing a position?
Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Irishman: Jason, to me, it has everything to do with the holocaust, because I see unborn babies as possessing the same human rights as you or I.
Reproduction is about creating new life. As soon as that new life is present within the mother, it ceases to be about "her" body, and becomes about "their" bodies. So, no, I don't see making this form of murder illegal dehumanizing in any way.
Jason, it is not a clearly-defined male vs. female issue. It is not as though men are pro-life and women are pro-choice. You seem to suggest that the pro-life position is being imposed by one gender on the other when that is NOT the case.
In reverse order: If it's not the case, then let the women decide wihout us men. Really, I doubt there would be even 10% for taking away a woman's right to choose. Probably not even 5%. The fact is that 80% of the leglislature is male (possibly more in South Dakota) and in this case, where no vote is called, it's literally the men making the decision for the women.
Reproduction is indeed about creating new life... sex is not. People have the choice to create a life, sometimes the precautions against that fail, and when they do, it's sometimes best for an unwanted pregnantcy to be terminated quickly, rather than to allow it to develop into a real, thnking, feeling, person, instead of a collection of cells with that potential.
Lastly, the Holocaust was a delibberate attempt to kill off a select racial group- nothing remotely like that is happening here. There is no organized abortion conspiracy (despite what the Right may claim). Only women making the toughest decision possible.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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I haven't been addressing this law. In my view, exceptions must be made when the life of the mother is at stake, and rape and incest.
This position however, puts a hell of a burden on someone to prove rape or incest.
And Jason:
I am perfectly willing to let women decide without us men on this issue. Who wants the responsibility?
Sex is not divorced from reproduction. Everytime a fertile man and fertile woman fuck, there is a chance (however minute) that a pregnancy will result. Only the most ignorant of ignorant don't know this.
To use your phrase, "it's sometimes best for an unwanted pregnancy to be terminated quickly..." I agree. To me (and to many free-thinking, unoppressed women) the conditions I gave above would qualify when that is to be invoked.
You're right. Abortion is not a conspiracy. It's worse than that. It's an institution, like slavery in America.
Please explain to us at what point in your view does a developing unborn child cease to be a collection of cells with potential and become a person?
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
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First you get your haploid (1 set of chomosomes) gamates (a sperm and egg).
Man meets woman, squishy jiggling ensues, it gets a bit messy...
The sperm does its thang, fuses with an egg and fertilizes it. The fertilized ovum (now refered to as a zygote)is diploid (2 sets of chromosomes = 46) and undergoes mitosis a few times. It them becomes a morula (a ball of cells essentialy) after about 3 days.
Next it develops into a hollow ball of cells (a blastocyst). The blastocyst then embeds itself into the wall of the uterus, (about 10 days after fertilization). A group of cells inside the blastocyst forms the yolk sack and the amniotic cavity (from which the embryo develops). The cells on the outside of the blastocyst (called trophoblasts) form the chorion (which forms the placenta.) An embryo now develops, and carries on for about eight weeks, after which time is considered a foetus.
At the end of the 1st trimester (which is the cut off point for abbortions that are for no medical reason in many countries) a foetus is around 2" from crown to backside. It has clearly defined arms, legs etc. and continues to develop for a further 21 weeks until birth.
So, to answer your question, I'd say sometime between 5 and 8 weeks (but I am not an expert, just a biology student with too much time on his hands).
James
-------------------- I have plenty of experience in biology. I bought a Tamagotchi in 1998... And... it's still alive.
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Well, a missed period is usually the first clue, but that might not happen for the first month (prior to embedding). However, if everything goes textbook perfect (HAH!), the woman will miss her first period approximately two weeks after fertilisation. However, other factors can cause a missed period. Many women get morning sickness during the first trimester, but many don't. It's usually around the ten-week point that suspicion usually becomes certainty, but all except the skinniest women won't "show" until about the fourth or fifth month (sixteen to twenty weeks).
Jason, the main proponent of the SD bill was/is a -- wait for it -- woman. One who is hoping this will give them a chance to overturn Roe v. Wade.
And Irishman... It's not an institution. It's an acknowledgement of reality. As I said in a previous post, women have proven over and over that when they want an abortion, they'll do whatever it takes, illegal or not, even at risk of their own lives. This has been true for thousads of years. In America, how many women died from botched abortions before it was legalised, regulated, and had quality control? Just making something illegal isn't going to stop those who really want it. Look at drugs and prostitution, nd alcohol during Prohibition. That worked real well! *pff*
I think the best we can do is legalise and regulate it until we are able to render it unneccessary as a society. That's what we should be striving for -- addressing the cause, and not just trying to eliminate a symptom.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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Yes, that part I'm familiar with. It's not a new discussion for me.
When it responds to stimuli more than a plant or any organell- second trimester is when neurons start forming and by third it's activly responsive to it's environment.
I would not favor second-third trimester abortions in any way, aside from lack thereof causing the mother's death.
As to a woman being the sponsor of the bill: biig deal. There's women radical enough to blow up clinics and shoot doctors- finding an elected official willing to cast the first vote would not be that difficult. They found a token- it's like them useing a black republican to strike at the Equal Voting Act. It's not representative of the majority of women's views (lest they would have put to to a popular vote).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Please to post the following, sir. No doubt, it'll draw fire from you, too.
Taking a break from Secret Project, I just HAVE to add my bits here.
To quote my friend Jeff, "I believe abortion is murder. BUT....I'm not anti-murder."
Hi there. I have a penis. I know where it goes & what it does. I accept that. But also, I don't really want ANYONE to take away my right to an abortion. That's right...I said MY right. I want & have just as much right to say "Dude, vacu-suck the shit outta that fucker" as much as any woman does.
I'm selfish, I'm self-centered. I have no patience for annoying things. Any woman I date, & any I'm gonna fuck has pretty much the same traits. In the past, they've all agreed: if that blob o' plasm is gonna be a cripple or a tard, SUCK THE FUCKER OUT. Dump it in the trash, flush it in the toilet, whatever. I cannot handle dealing with that hardship. Is that selfish? Yes. Is it also altruistic? You betcha. It's not fair to the little criptard to have a parent like me--I'd never have the patience to deal with it & I know I'd become resentful & that leads to nasty anger. I will (& HAVE) run around screaming "ABORT!! ABORT!! ABORT!! MAKE ME DEAD BABY STEW!!"
Some of you don't agree with abortion. Me, I have to take it on a point-by-point, case-by-case basis; I don't deal with absolutes. But who are you to take away the option? Who are YOU to tell ME what to do & how to live my life? YOU are not part of MY culture, so do not impinge upon me with your "morality," please. Pro-choice means JUST THAT: the choice is there. The OPTION is there. Many pro-choice people are personally anti-abortion, but they recognize the fact that the option should still be there. I hate the drunken jackasses outside my window every night between 0200 & 0245. Does that mean that alcohol is bad & all bars should be closed? No. When I go to a bar, I CHOOSE to not be a fuckwit & be responsible for my actions. It's the same thing.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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"The blastocyst then embeds itself into the wall of the uterus, (about 10 days after fertilization)."
I don't know what this will do to anyone's opinions on the matter, but, according to various sources I've seen (on the Internets, mind you), between 50 and 80% of fertilized eggs never make it that far. They don't implant and end up just being flushed out in the normal course of the menstrual cycle.
Now, for those of you who believe a zygote is a baby from the moment of conception... that's a whole fucking lot of dead babies for you to contemplate.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
That is a fuck of a good point. I'd choose you for my debate team anyday, pallie.
Mabye they can ammend the SD law to make the mother criminally neglegent for those unimplanted eggs... After all, if the woman was not engaged in (sinful!) sexual relations outside of marriage, she could not have become pregnant....
So the state must ban all non-marital sex.
Ohh yeah....welcome to Orwellian hell with a Christian slant.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Er...Shik asked me to post this for him:
quote:Please to post the following, sir. No doubt, it'll draw fire from you, too.
Taking a break from Secret Project, I just HAVE to add my bits here.
To quote my friend Jeff, "I believe abortion is murder. BUT....I'm not anti-murder."
Hi there. I have a penis. I know where it goes & what it does. I accept that. But also, I don't really want ANYONE to take away my right to an abortion. That's right...I said MY right. I want & have just as much right to say "Dude, vacu-suck the shit outta that fucker" as much as any woman does.
I'm selfish, I'm self-centered. I have no patience for annoying things. Any woman I date, & any I'm gonna fuck has pretty much the same traits. In the past, they've all agreed: if that blob o' plasm is gonna be a cripple or a tard, SUCK THE FUCKER OUT. Dump it in the trash, flush it in the toilet, whatever. I cannot handle dealing with that hardship. Is that selfish? Yes. Is it also altruistic? You betcha. It's not fair to the little criptard to have a parent like me--I'd never have the patience to deal with it & I know I'd become resentful & that leads to nasty anger. I will (& HAVE) run around screaming "ABORT!! ABORT!! ABORT!! MAKE ME DEAD BABY STEW!!"
Some of you don't agree with abortion. Me, I have to take it on a point-by-point, case-by-case basis; I don't deal with absolutes. But who are you to take away the option? Who are YOU to tell ME what to do & how to live my life? YOU are not part of MY culture, so do not impinge upon me with your "morality," please. Pro-choice means JUST THAT: the choice is there. The OPTION is there. Many pro-choice people are personally anti-abortion, but they recognize the fact that the option should still be there. I hate the drunken jackasses outside my window every night between 0200 & 0245. Does that mean that alcohol is bad & all bars should be closed? No. When I go to a bar, I CHOOSE to not be a fuckwit & be responsible for my actions. It's the same thing.
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