WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
The very basis of law itself was founded on the tenets of religion. If you want to remove religion then you have to question the very basis of the laws we have. At that point, who decides what is "moral", "ethical", or "right"? The majority? Puh-lease, you can't even get the majority to simply turn out and vote. I had a relative whose major complaint against a crooked local politician was that HE himself wasn't the one in office raking it in. A select jury? Yeah, like the one that couldn't convict O.J. with DNA evidence. I remember a local news station asking the public what they thought and this one idiot stated that she believed O.J. couldn't be guilty because he had such a nice smile and seemed so nice in his commercials. Is that the moral insight needed to establish law? The very concept of law is that justice be administered when a law is broken. Punishment for transgression. Sounds religious to me.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
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Um...laws have been around before religion. Take a look around you at ecology.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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Take a look at the U.S.S.R.- no religion, but despite having a shoddy governmental structure and most people living comparitivly difficult lives, morals still remain. One less thing to fight over, really. The simple notion of live and let live did not start with religion and are not dependant on it.
Personal beliefs aside, the "Great Experiment" that is the United States (and it's greatest strength) is the governmental protections of personal freedoms from a ruling class imposing their religous beliefs on the masses and the exchange in ideals that diversity brings.
Regarding Ms. Psycho Katherine Harris- here's some of what is being said of her -from Associated Press:
quote:Harris Looks Like Primary Winner
By BRENDAN FARRINGTON Associated Press Writer Posted September 4 2006, 6:13 PM EDT
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Disaster may not be too strong a word for Rep. Katherine Harris' Senate campaign.
Her makeup and formfitting clothes are mocked on national TV. Her flirty interview style embarrasses her campaign handlers. Staffers keep quitting in despair.
She's been linked to a shady defense contractor, caught in fibs and scolded for telling voters that non-Christian politicians "legislate sin."
Yet, on the strength of her name recognition, Harris is expected to win Florida's GOP Senate nomination on Tuesday, to the chagrin of many Republicans.
"This campaign will go down in history as one of the most disastrous ever run in the United States," declares Jim Dornan, who helped launch Harris' bid as her campaign manager. He left three months later, unable to work with her.
"I don't think anybody can envision any campaign being conducted in as poor a fashion as this one's been conducted," said Darryl Paulson, a University of South Florida political science professor.
Her campaign shrugs off such criticism.
"Our entire campaign team is looking forward, not backward," said spokeswoman Jennifer Marks. "We're energized and we're excited."
Republicans in Washington and Florida tried to recruit someone notable to enter the primary against Harris, from Florida House Speaker Allan Bense to former congressman and political talk show host Joe Scarborough.
Those efforts failed. So Harris is expected to walk away with the nomination against three political unknowns who got in the GOP primary on the last day of qualifying.
That would leave Republicans -- who want to oust first-term Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson in November -- to hope that Harris can rebuild a campaign that has been wobbly from day one.
She kicked off her campaign in August last year with rallies in Sarasota and Polk County, where an enthusiastic hometown crowd waved signs and cheered. Her speeches went off without a hitch. Then came a live national TV appearance on Fox News' "Hannity & Colmes."
That interview set the tone for the rest of the campaign.
Harris stood at an angle reminiscent of a beauty queen, with a smile to match. She repeatedly told hosts Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes that she was "excited" about the campaign, but she didn't have much of substance to say. At times she appeared to be flirting with Hannity.
As her campaign manager at the time, Dornan said he was "mortified."
"She doesn't interview, she flirts. And it's offensive to professional women and it's embarrassing," he said.
That appearance marked the return to late-night mockery of Harris, who was the butt of jokes about her makeup during the 2000 presidential recount, when, as Florida's secretary of state she declared George W. Bush the winner. Despite the ribbing, she became a conservative hero, and that fame propelled her into a House seat in 2003.
She was again a running gag on late-night comedy shows, as well as political blogs such as Wonkette.
What followed were details of her relationship with Mitchell Wade, a defense contractor who pleaded guilty to bribing another congressman. Wade admitted giving Harris $32,000 in illegal campaign contributions. Harris also attended two lavish dinners with Wade, including one that cost $2,800.
Harris had sought a $10 million federal appropriation so Wade's company, MZM Inc., could build a counterintelligence facility in her Sarasota district; the House rejected the proposal.
Her advisers told her to get out of the race, that she couldn't win. Instead, she did another odd interview with Hannity to say she would spend $10 million of her own money to stay in.
Soon after, all her key staff left. They described a candidate who wouldn't take advice, threw tantrums and bawled. The replacements she hired left after three months.
Her credibility came into question when none of nine promised elected officials showed up at a campaign event in an Orlando airport hanger. The crowd was also dismal, and she said a tree fell on the hanger where the event was originally scheduled and people must not have known where to go. But it turned out that story was made up.
She recently called separation of church and state "a lie," and angered Jews and others by saying, "If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin."
Florida Republican Gov. Jeb Bush said Harris couldn't win. Ditto Republican Party of Florida Chairman Carol Jean Jordan.
But Marks, Harris' spokeswoman, says the candidate is being greeted by "a tremendous wave of support" as she travels the state, focusing on issues instead of the controversies. Campaigning on Monday in the heart of Miami's Little Havana district, Harris spoke Spanish with the help of a press aide and drank cafe con leche.
Restaurateur Reinaldo Romo, who got a hug and a sticker from Harris, said, "She can always count on my vote. She's very truthful, and she's a very nice lady."
There are some beyond Florida's borders wishing her well, too.
"On a very personal level, I would be thrilled if she won election to the Senate," said Alex Pareene, editor of the cheeky political Web site Wonkette. "It would make my job easier for the next six years. Mean-spirited or not, I am rooting for her all the way."
Sadly, the GOP could not come up with anyone to beat her for the party's nomination...while I soubt she'll win the Senate campaign, people morons tend to vote for whatever name they've heard the most often... (shudder)
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
In my experience, once a conversation like this takes the laws of physics v. laws of states fork, the participants are talking at such cross purposes that little that's meaningful is left to be said.
Registered: Mar 1999
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1400 quatloos on this topic/thread not being finished.
Before launching into a diatribe that no one will bother to read, I would point out maybe the irony/futility of fighting fundamentalism with fundamentalism.
So I do sort of get the question of scale problem regarding God's Law and secular Law. It's just that whereas the people who live here in the USofA have more or less agreed to live by US law, they have a multitude of different ideas regarding God's Law and which god(s) or goddess(es) may be applicable/silly. Which is to say that separating Church and State is a good idea so long as you believe that people having different beliefs and/or values than your own is A) OK or even B) a pretty cool idea.
I'll submit a flimsily pertinent scenario which won't win me any points or convince anyone, but maybe amuses:
quote:I am a vegetarian. I have been for coming up on 16 years. I'm not one of the people who make you feel shit for having a burger, but if you asked me about it and genuinely wanted to know, I would tell you that I happen to believe that the world would probably be a better place if people ate certainly less and possibly even no meat. I think the meat industry is corrupt, offensive and more or less a direct affront to all the things that otherwise make humanity special and beautiful. (Before you start flinging your vitriol, I am stating my personal beliefs, which is, precisely the point I'm getting to.)
So I worked as a runner at a post-production house up in the city. Part of this job was ordering food for the producers/directors/editors. And sometimes they ordered meat. Often, even. They liked meat. I guess so do a lot of people. Now I could have changed all their orders to salads or potatoes or whatever, but I understood that even though I held these personal beliefs about meat, that what I agreed to do as part of my job was to order meat dishes. And so I did it. For a while. (Actually the job sort of sucked otherwise and the opportunities to play with their neato toys were far fewer than I'd been promised and anyway I quit)
And so we're clear, I have approximately ZERO interest in debating vegetarianism or the ethics of animal politics here. I'm just using this as an example of a fervent personal belief that could interfere in one's capacity to do one's job and that it's each persons personal choice about whether or not their beliefs will let them do that job. Which is to say that if a person's personal beliefs (no matter how celestial or sacrosanct their origin) interfere in their capacity to do that job, then maybe they should have a different job.
Registered: Sep 2000
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(It is perhaps of some small interest that while God is invoked in the Declaration of Independence with some frequency, He is notably absent from the Constitution.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
It was the Free-Masons....
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sol System: (It is perhaps of some small interest that while God is invoked in the Declaration of Independence with some frequency, He is notably absent from the Constitution.)
Because the Declaration was a public ralling point, while the Constution was the far tougher chore of making a doctrine by which free men could live without their government taking advantage of them.
Freedom from religous persectution was a big topic back then...it was possibly the only time in out nation's history that an aithest could have become President.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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