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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"

*L*

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with <i>seven</i> eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
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And homeschooling also turns you into a socially well-adjusted person, capable of talking to people without them wanting to ram a f***ing chair down your throat! - PsyLiam, 3/11/01

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with <i>seven</i> eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
And homeschooling also turns you into a socially well-adjusted person, capable of talking to people without them wanting to ram a f***ing chair down your throat! - PsyLiam, 3/11/01

Unfortunately, this thread has taken off in too many directions. I wish people could stay and argue one damn point at a time. In any case...

My brother displayed his firearm twice. He never felt the need to report it, although he probably should.

Trigger locks, at least the ones I have seen, are fairly useless things, for several reasons.

1: They make it difficult to use a gun at its most necessary, in a crisis situation.

2: They're breakable, with some effort. (But effort you can't apply in #1.)

3: In a home with responsible gun knowledge, they're redundant. In a home without... well, in a home without, guns shouldn't be there in the first place. However, this can be solved by something that even the NRA agrees should be widespread and probably mandatory... we call it EDUCATION.

Children are killed by guns not in spite of their parents' wanting to shelter them and protect them, but BECAUSE of it. Parents aren't willing to show their kids what guns are, what they can do, and how very, VERY dangerous they can be when used improperly. So the kids grow up seeing guns used to little effect on TV, and aren't afraid of them. BAD idea.

Take my example. As I've said before, I grew up surrounded by guns I could have accessed regularly. I even shot some, when I was young. My parents, BOTH of them, grew up in gun-owning homes. Yet, NO problems. Why? Because we all had an experience similar to this one:

When I was elementary-aged, my father took me out back with one of his larger pistols, and a watermelon. He had me poke the melon, and compare its hardness and consistency to that of my body. And he told me about kids who play with guns. To suppose that that melon was another kid, my friend. And suppose I was playing with a gun. And suppose I pointed it at him. And pulled the trigger. And *BLAM!*

Now you'll have to take my word for this, I suppose, but looking at a melon explode, imagining that that was my friend with his insides blown all over the place... was a pretty sickening experience.

But it kept me from playing with guns, EVER.

.....
And now, a bit about Jeff's problem with my being in favor of expanding the on-scene shooting ability to include muggers, etc.

Tough. I might point out that shooting someone DURING the commission of a crime is a LOT different from arresting a suspect based solely on later evidence and subsequently executing them. Most obviously, there is no doubt possible that the person was actually COMMITTING the illegal act. DNA evidence will never clear them. THEY WERE DOING IT AT THE TIME!

On-site shooting is far less morally ambiguous than the Death Penalty.

However, someone doing so had better be damned sure they can prove some kind of intent, of they're screwed. And be sure NOT to overdo it. That's how they got Mr. Goetz.

There was a wise writer long ago, who said "People who do not have respect for other people's property will steal anything that isn't nailed down. These animals should be destroyed on sight. The problem is identifying them." People who do those things will do anything. They will, most likely, end up killing someone eventually (the average murderer's rap sheet, as I pointed out before, has 7 pre-murder felonies), simply because that person was 'inconvenient' to them. Plenty of robbers, muggers, rapists, etc have murdered their victims. You can't expect me to feel sorry for them. The're NOT pitiable. NONE of them NEED to do what they're doing. They choose to do it, and the consequences shouldn't be UP to THEM. The idea is to discourage the act by making it DANGEROUS. Less people are going to do something if they know that there's a very good chance that they will DIE doing it.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

quote:

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Unfortunately, this thread has taken off in too many directions. I wish people could stay and argue one damn point at a time. In any case...

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You're one to talk, given that you were pretty instrumental in the whole "Ostrich" debate.

quote:

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My brother displayed his firearm twice. He never felt the need to report it, although he probably should.

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Yes, if he wanted that number to be part of an "official government figure", then, yes, he should have.

quote:

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Trigger locks, at least the ones I have seen, are fairly useless things, for several reasons.

1: They make it difficult to use a gun at its most necessary, in a crisis situation.

2: They're breakable, with some effort. (But effort you can't apply in #1.)

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Which is why I'm for a push for stronger gun locks, that are reasonably easy to remove for gun-owners if they feel the need. Honestly, if I can get the lock off my locker at the gym in three seconds, I don't see why they're so damn difficult to get off guns in an emergency. Practice, practice, practice.

quote:

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3: In a home with responsible gun knowledge, they're redundant. In a home without... well, in a home without, guns shouldn't be there in the first place. However, this can be solved by something that even the NRA agrees should be widespread and probably mandatory... we call it EDUCATION.

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Redundancy can be a good thing. You can never be "too safe" with some things. But, I quite agree with First that that not everyone should have a right to own a gun.

quote:

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Children are killed by guns not in spite of their parents' wanting to shelter them and protect them, but BECAUSE of it. Parents aren't willing to show their kids what guns are, what they can do, and how very, VERY dangerous they can be when used improperly. So the kids grow up seeing guns used to little effect on TV, and aren't afraid of them. BAD idea.

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Yep. The de-sensitizing of violence. One of many factors which contributes to school shootings. These families should not own firearms as well.

quote:

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Take my example. As I've said before, I grew up surrounded by guns I could have accessed regularly. I even shot some, when I was young. My parents, BOTH of them, grew up in gun-owning homes. Yet, NO problems. Why? Because we all had an experience similar to this one:

When I was elementary-aged, my father took me out back with one of his larger pistols, and a watermelon. He had me poke the melon, and compare its hardness and consistency to that of my body. And he told me about kids who play with guns. To suppose that that melon was another kid, my friend. And suppose I was playing with a gun. And suppose I pointed it at him. And pulled the trigger. And *BLAM!*

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While my view that guns = bad is I'm sure, quite well known, I'd be more comfortable if more people took 1of2's folks' approach to gun safety. Maybe then I'd be less opposed to people walking around with guns.

quote:

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Now you'll have to take my word for this, I suppose, but looking at a melon explode, imagining that that was my friend with his insides blown all over the place... was a pretty sickening experience.

But it kept me from playing with guns, EVER.

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Which is a good thing. People who aren't willing to take those steps to illustrate gun safety don't deserve to own a gun.

quote:

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Tough. I might point out that shooting someone DURING the commission of a crime is a LOT different from arresting a suspect based solely on later evidence and subsequently executing them. Most obviously, there is no doubt possible that the person was actually COMMITTING the illegal act. DNA evidence will never clear them. THEY WERE DOING IT AT THE TIME!

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I'd be happier if you'd lay out specific situations for which a shooting might be justified. I think I'd always have a problem if you shot an unarmed burgler, or a mugger with a knife. On the other hand, if someone's pointing a shotgun at you, that would be a pretty cut-and-dry case of self-defense.

quote:

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On-site shooting is far less morally ambiguous than the Death Penalty.

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Again, depending on the circumstances of the shooting.

quote:

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However, someone doing so had better be damned sure they can prove some kind of intent, of they're screwed. And be sure NOT to overdo it. That's how they got Mr. Goetz.

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Refresh my memory: was Goetz the guy on the NY subway?

quote:

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There was a wise writer long ago, who said "People who do not have respect for other people's property will steal anything that isn't nailed down. These animals should be destroyed on sight. The problem is identifying them." People who do those things will do anything. They will, most likely, end up killing someone eventually (the average murderer's rap sheet, as I pointed out before, has 7 pre-murder felonies), simply because that person was 'inconvenient' to them. Plenty of robbers, muggers, rapists, etc have murdered their victims. You can't expect me to feel sorry for them. The're NOT pitiable. NONE of them NEED to do what they're doing. They choose to do it, and the consequences shouldn't be UP to THEM. The idea is to discourage the act by making it DANGEROUS. Less people are going to do something if they know that there's a very good chance that they will DIE doing it.

---

Well, look, you can't shoot some kid to death for shop-lifting for crimes he might commit someday. If a woman is about to be raped and she kills someone, that's one thing. But if you shoot a guy whose ripping off some magazines from a newstand, that's a different story altogether.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

I'm in favor of making the taking and passing of a gun safety/training course a MANDATORY requirement for owning/carrying one's own firearm.

Mostly, responsible owners have already done such things, or can with minor difficulty. Everyone in my family has. The NRA, various police and security organizations, and even the Boy Scouts offer such courses. (When I was in, -- Eagle, Class of 88 -- the Scouts had Rifle and Shotgun shooting merit badges, and safety training was a requirement for both. I think now they've narrowed it down to one badge.)

"Justified" shooting, on the other hand, seems likely to be an area on which we will not agree, since we clearly disagree on the morality of using force to defend property, and seem to disagree on the morality of using SUPERIOR force against even an armed assailant, as your comment about the mugger with the knife seems to indicate.

For myself, I would prefer to be BETTER armed than my assailant, and yes, I would PREFER to hope that the simple display of a firearm would frighten him away. Some people, however, are determined/stupid beyond the point of reason and will continue to advance. You will need to dispatch them in a way that does not endanger you. And in a crisis, you may not have time to decide between choosing to brandish and choosing to fire.

quote:

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I'm in favor of making the taking and passing of a gun safety/training course a MANDATORY requirement for owning/carrying one's own firearm

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Absolutely.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

quote:

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EL CAJON, California (CNN) -- For the second time in three weeks, a California high school on Friday canceled classes and opened its doors for counseling after a student opened fire on campus.

Four students -- including the alleged shooter -- and two teachers were wounded at Granite Hills High School, just seven miles from a fatal shooting on March 5.

Authorities said none of the injuries appeared to be life-threatening.

Suspected gunman Jason Hoffman, an 18-year-old senior, was listed in fair but stable condition Friday after undergoing nearly five hours of surgery Thursday night, said hospital spokeswoman Eileen Cornish. He remained under police guard.

"He was shot in the buttock area as well as in his face, and the facial wound required reconstruction, and he broke his jaw," Cornish told CNN. "He did speak with sheriff's detectives last night after he came out of surgery." Police said he received the wounds in a gun battle with a campus police officer.

Granite Hills, in the San Diego suburb of El Cajon, is part of the same school district as Santana High in Santee, where 15-year-old freshman Charles "Andy" Williams was accused of killing two students and wounding 13 more people in the March 5 shooting.

Williams is charged with 28 felonies, including two counts of murder. Investigators said in court documents that Williams carefully planned the shooting but had no specific target.

Witnesses said the Granite Hills gunman simply started shooting just before 1 p.m., firing off at least eight shots before school resource officer Richard Agundez, an El Cajon police agent, brought him down in a gun battle.

"He engaged the suspect in this case ... they had a slight running gun battle at the school," said Capt. Bill McClurg of the El Cajon Police Department.

Andy Yafuso, 15, hit by shotgun pellets in face, arms and chest, in stable condition in intensive care unit at Sharp Memorial Hospital

Shaunda Hughs, a junior, grazed in right leg, taken to Scripps Mercy Hospital and discharged

Toby Haltstead, 15, hit in arm and leg, taken to Scripps Mercy Hospital and discharged

William Dietzler, injured during fall while running across street, taken to University of California at San Diego Medical Center.

Corina Scribellito, 17, hyperventilating, taken to Grossmont Hospital and discharged

Unidentified 15-year-old, treated for shortness of breath at Grossmont and released.

Pricilla Murphy, 53, struck in left arm and leg, grazed taken to University of California at San Diego Medical Center and released. A resource instructor

Fran Zumwalt, 47, grazed by bullet, scratches on face and legs, taken to Scripps Mercy Hospital and discharged. A social science teacher.

The gun battle occurred near the administration building on the north side of the school.

San Diego District Attorney Paul Pfingst said Hoffman could face charges ranging from attempted murder to assault, as well as weapons charges. By law, he should be arraigned by Tuesday, but Pfingst said his injuries may require that to be postponed.

El Cajon Police Chief James Davis said authorities believe the 12-gauge Mossberg pump shotgun and the .22 caliber pistol recovered after the shooting came from Hoffman's home, and said additional ammunition for the pistol was also recovered at the scene.

Pfingst said his office and law enforcement agencies were executing search warrants in more than one location as part of the investigation.

McClurg said that investigators have not been told of any threats Hoffman may have made, but they were interviewing students, teachers and other faculty, searching for a motive.

"There were no warning signs," said senior Travis Peters who was in an algebra class with Hoffman. "He wasn't an outcast, no one made fun of him. As far as I know, he was like every other kid."

But 18-year-old Andrew Dunkel, a senior who has known Hoffman since elementary school, said the boy always seemed to be upset.

"The thing I got from him was that he never had friends," said Dunkel.

"He had this hate-the-world walk," said student Sean Connacher, 18. "This is a kid who didn't get picked on very often because most of the kids were afraid of him."

At Santana High, where students are still struggling to understand the shooting that disrupted their lives earlier this month, students were dismayed to hear about Granite Hills.

A Thursday afternoon baseball game between Granite Hills and Santana was canceled, and counselors were made available at Santana as well as Granite Hills.

"I think everyone was kind of in shock because it happened again," said Aaron Novotny, a Santana freshman.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

5'll getcha 10 this kid was a copycat.

Yes, I agree it was probably a copy-cat crime.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Liberals. Always pessimistic. Yes, six people got shot, but HOW MANY MORE WERE SAVED?