posted
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on either side that actually believes that the US would declare war over one surveillance plane...especially now that the crew is safe and sound? I mean, as Omega is so fond of pointing out, China has stolen "nuclear weapons technology". They could reverse-engineer a bit more military technology, and simply buy the rest...what's the big deal over this dinky little prop-plane?
At the very least, I'd expect you'd want to sell them a few more McDonalds hamburgers, a much more cell phones, and Pepsi bottles before you bomb them...so that you can make money AND get your kicks blowing stuff up.
------------------ "The Guide says that there is an art to flying...or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Life, the Universe and Everything
posted
Agreed. The plan almost certainly had all its most sophisticated and secret hardware and data destroyed by the crew. Raising any REAL fuss about it would be incredibly stupid.
Infinity: you remind me of what an Irish friend of mine said about his people... "We don't know what we want, but we're willing to fight for it anyway." You want to attack my position, FINE. I might learn something. But please, name-calling went out with schoolyard fistfights and peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch.
Present an argument. (And that doesn't mean chanting "US bases suck!" over and over again, by the way.)
An argument is a series of facts intended to support a proposition. Your proposition, incidentally, is that US military bases should be removed from foreign soil. Now, you need to say WHY, and what could be done to replace the power vacuum that will open up when they disappear.
Blathering on about 'cultural imperialism' and 'nationalism' and the rest of that crap will, unfortunately, not help you to establish this proposition. Every country is nationalist. They wouldn't exist otherwise. Every country is primarily out for its own interests. They COULD not exist otherwise.
Now, you can either take this advice, and try again, or not. If you do, we can get started. If not, I shall proclaim you the Leftist Omega, and people will laugh at you and belittle your opinions.
Military bases provide an economic uplift to the areas that they are in. Just look at all the 'base towns' in the US that were hit hard when we closed their bases. (This doesn't really apply to Guantanamo, or other places where the bases are essentially beachheads, but it applies everywhere else, especially third world and impoverished nations.)
They provide a staging area for relief missions, whether military or humanitarian. They are thusly regional stabilizers.
They provide an evacuation point in the event of civil unrest.
And let me make one last thing clear about our military bases. Except for the places we invaded during wartime, which a TRULY imperialist country would have kept ALL of, we were INVITED. Or we PAY for the privelege of the base. (All our base are BELONG to us.) Comprende 'treaty?' These bases aren't held by sheer military might and threats. They're held by agreement. If a government decides we leave, we leave. we left Panama, even though that may turn out to be a bad idea, because we agreed to some years before.
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
posted
I wasn't doing any name-calling. The words "dumb american" were in quotes, because they are representative of the stereotype that other countries view the US thorough. The US bases are established to help others yet the ones in Macedonia haven't done any good to the Macedonian people. Many Americans drive on the wrong side of the road( although in Macedonia people drive on the SAME side as the US, so it would make no sense for them to drive on the other side, but they do it anyway) thinking they are above the law, and have caused many civilian casualties. When groups of vigilantes try to do something about it, they cry to the Macedonian government to protect their embassy, although it was they who disrespected the country's laws. And to top it all off, the US protected the Albanians in Yugoslavia, which led to the very same Albanians attacking Macedonia. So they CREATED a problem instead of stopping it, and Bush refuses to do anything about it now that the situation is already there. And to top it all off during the US's attacks on Yugoslavia, many bombs missed their targets and had civilian casualties in Macedonia. After finally ruining everything, the US could at least leave and let Macedonia and her allies eliminate the Albanian problem whichever way they deem necessary, but instead they are staying there against the wishes of everyone in the country, which I might add is violating teritorial sovereignty.
To summarize: The base did no good, it caused problems, it doesn't wanna help solve them, and it doesn't even wanna leave and let the people solve it themselves.
------------------ "Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
posted
Ok, we'll let them build those nice big ovens.
Are isolated instances being blown out of proportion here??
Has there been a proper poll of the citizens of that area to find out how they truly think, without pressure from the poll takers being armed and of a certain side, a neutral poll taker used?? Or is this a case of the squeaky wheel not getting the oil it's crying for??
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
I don't know if "pissed-off" is quite the right word. Omega's an interesting debater. Essentially, he'll side with anything Republican, believes NASA and the Highways are Un-Constitutional, has an EXTREMELY strict view of the Constitution ("diagram the dammed sentence!) and likes to complain about "ad-hominems" and "appeals to authority" (yet, strangely enough, will commit those same offenses as many times as he accuses others of doing them), and is generally just a stubborn kinda' guy.
He also thinks the Chinese military should be punished for not upholding the US Constitution, can't spell Britain to save his life, and has an odd fascination with some show about a Canadian Mountie living (& kickin' butt) in Chicago (the name escapes me at the moment).
Anyway. He's just an odd-kind of debater. You see him enter in the thread and you know it'll be about as progressive as banging you head into a brick wall in an effort to move said wall.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
believes NASA and the Highways are Un-Constitutional
You have yet to show that they are constitutional. You assume them to be.
likes to complain about "ad-hominems" and "appeals to authority"
Only when you make them and pretend that you've made a legitimate point. Oh, don't forget, I also complain about your constantly trying to pull a "guilt by association" by attacking Limbaugh and pretending that this makes some point about my arguments.
He also thinks the Chinese military should be punished for not upholding the US Constitution
Never said that.
can't spell Britain to save his life
Find the last time I misspelled it.
See, this is why I argue with you on every frikin' point, Jeff. I don't want you to spread lies unchecked.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited April 15, 2001).]
posted
Okay... The highway system, IIRC, was made for national defense, which is covered by Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1. "The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."
The "...common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; ..." can also be taken to mean NASA in its role of R&D for protection in and from space weapons, and ability to implement projects developed. The need to project power in an "Astriod"-movie type scenerio would be for the "...general Welfare of the United States...", as well as the rest of the world. A slim possibility, but from what I've read still a chance.
Also the technologies developed for both the highways and by NASA would also apply.
Next?
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Ah. Quite right. Let me ammend what I said. Omega has YET to side with anything not Republican in origin.
You have yet to show that they are.
Thanks Ritten
Only when you make them and pretend that you've made a legitimate point. Oh, don't forget, I also complain about your constantly trying to pull a "guilt by association" by attacking Limbaugh and pretending that this makes some point about my arguments.
Well, as you'll see in the Volcano thread, I posted a rebuttal of your argument. It happens to be that your arguement was also Mr. Limbaugh's arguement, and the rebuttal was written in response to Mr. Limbaugh's arguement. Since they were the same, I don't see the problem. Except, of course, that you feel the need to cry foul instead of reading the rebuttal.
You make ad-hominems ALL the time Omega. Do you forget about them already?
Never said that.
I made an extremely tongue-in-cheek comment about the difference between the US and Chinese militaries and the Constitution. You replied that the difference was that the US military was punished for not upholding the Constitution. The clear inference is that you think the Chinese military should also be punished for failing to uphold the US Constitution. Therefore, for that to happen, you must believe that they should uphold the US Constitution.
Find the last time I misspelled it.
Ah, it's clear in all our memories, dear sir. I remember a particular amusing thread involving Fraance, actually. And, um, you know, you see how MY name is spelled in every post I make, yet you don't spell it correctly ... Jeff Karrde?
But, at least you're not denying that you misspell it. Just that you haven't done so recently.
See, this is why I argue with you on every frikin' point, Jeff. I don't want you to spread lies unchecked.
You're not arguing with me on every single point. I made many others. Since you're not arguing those, we shall assume those are true. These include the fact that a debate with you is about as productive as banging one's head into a wall.
See, Omega, I argue with you because I don't want people believing your ignorance is in fact, well, fact.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
posted
Omega has YET to side with anything not Republican in origin.
Show me a good bill that was introduced by a Democrat and I'll support it.
You make ad-hominems ALL the time Omega.
Yes, but unlike you in your early weeks (since when I haven't mentioned the term in question), I never pretended that saying, "You're a poopy-head," makes an actual point in an argument. It ain't a logical falacy if you don't claim it to make a point.
The clear inference is that you think the Chinese military should also be punished for failing to uphold the US Constitution.
Have you not yet learned to stop making unwarranted assumptions about other peoples' statements? You got into a lot of credibility trouble last time.
These include the fact that a debate with you is about as productive as banging one's head into a wall.
That's not fact. That's opinion. It gets ignored by most.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
posted
Omega, how do you feel about my 'interpetation' above?
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
quote: Has there been a proper poll of the citizens of that area to find out how they truly think, without pressure from the poll takers being armed and of a certain side, a neutral poll taker used?? Or is this a case of the squeaky wheel not getting the oil it's crying for??
I grew up in that area, I maintain contact with all my friends and family in that area, I go to visit quite often, I read the newspapers in that area. I know that every Macedonian wants to lynch the americans for what they did!! and a goodly number of them have decided TO lynch the americans for what they did, if you happen to recall the destruction of the american embassy.
------------------ "Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
posted
Show me a good bill that was introduced by a Democrat and I'll support it.
So you're not denying it.
Yes, but unlike you in your early weeks (since when I haven't mentioned the term in question), I never pretended that saying, "You're a poopy-head," makes an actual point in an argument. It ain't a logical falacy if you don't claim it to make a point.
Ah. I see, so by calling me a left-wing nut, it's okay because you're not trying to make a point?
you not yet learned to stop making unwarranted assumptions about other peoples' statements? You got into a lot of credibility trouble last time.
Well, you could've just said "the difference is that the Chinese military isn't supposed to uphold the US Constitution!" Instead, you said, "the difference is that the US military gets punished for not upholding the Constitution." Leaves a lot to read into.
That's not fact. That's opinion. It gets ignored by most.
Are you so certain of that?
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
Comprende 'treaty?' These bases aren't held by sheer military might and threats. They're held by agreement. If a government decides we leave, we leave. we left Panama, even though that may turn out to be a bad idea, because we agreed to some years before.
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