posted
The Commanding Officer = Captain thing has always really annoyed me. I assume its due to the Navy's policy of calling a CO "Captain" regardless of actual rank, which must have confused Paramount into thinking that all COs are Captains. I really sympathised with Riker and his continuous refusal to take his own command, as I would definitely prefer to be XO of a behemoth like the Enterprise than CO of some piddly little Oberth or Miranda. DS9 seemed to start getting it right by giving Dax and Worf command of the Defiant at various points, but made themselves look silly with the Prometheus thing. I think it should really have been:
And the flagship should definitely have an Admiral on it. Thats what it means after all, as Admirals "fly their flag" on a ship. Big ships like Aircraft Carriers always have Admirals on, in addition to the CO.
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
I don't agree. All of the ships you listed wields a devestating amount of firepower (particulary incomparison with most Alpha Quadrant races) and starship commanders have a lot of latitude in how they conduct their missions. A Lt. Commander or Commander might fly off the handle ina standoff situation and start a war during what could have otherwise been just a tense encounter. I could, however see a Lt. Commander in charge of a easy "milk run" assignment inside of Fed space. The Lantree would be a good example of a easy assignment in an older ship with minimal armament. I think that thereis also a lot more to being in charge of a ship with 500+ crewmen than the experience that comes with a commander's pips.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Obviously your rank isn't the only qualification to command - you have to demonstrate your ability, just like you do now. It wouldn't just be some Starfleet Admiral wondering around HQ, grabbing the first Lt Cmdr he sees and saying "hey, you're a Lt Cmdr, have this new Defiant I just had built. This button fires the phasers, and this one launches some torpedoes. Got it?"
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
quote: A Lt. Commander or Commander might fly off the handle ina standoff situation and start a war during what could have otherwise been just a tense encounter.
Why? Going by modern military standards (the closest real world organisation, we're talking about people with between 12-25+ years of experience who hold those ranks. In order to gain a command it is necessary to pass several, very intensive, courses.
As for Harriman, I prefer to think that Starfleet would have assigned a competant commander to the Enterprise, even for her shakedown. I don't blame him for being nervous, what with three senior Captains on his bridge, being in command of the Enterprise, the crisis, the lack of supplies, etc. I think it is possible it was his first command as captain, but not necessarily his first posting as captain (He could have been assigned to Starfleet Acadamy, SFHQ, Starfleet Tactical, some Admiral's staff, etc.)
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Nim: "There are some backstories that place Kirk in command of the Saladin."
Does anyone else appreciate the irony in this?
At the risk of looking foolish, my answer is "no." Elaborate, please.
It's interesting to point out Harriman's "photogenic" nature -- I think that's exactly what the writers were aiming for, and got screwed up, either in the directing or the acting. I think Alan Ruck is a good enough actor, but he seemed to be drawing a little too much on his Cameron Fry role... ("Let my Cameron go.....")
I agree that there should definitely be some lower-ranked officers in charge of some ships. However, to play devil's advocate, consider that the PURPOSE of the ranking system is not entirely the same in the Trek universe. In real life, ranks are actually pay grades. A promotion means getting a raise. But money doesn't exist in the 24th century, and so the ranks seem to exist solely as a kind of meritocracy. Meaning that it does make some sense for the "Captain == Commanding Officer" equation. However, given the number of ships and so forth, that still might not entirely make sense -- and especially because of the lingering validity of the relative prestige of commanding the Galaxy-class USS Enterprise compared to the Minnow-class USS Rustbucket.
I hate jumping through hoops to rationalize things, but considering the number of times we've had rank pip gaffes on the show -- especially with regular characters -- couldn't we "bump" Piersall up to a Lt. Commander and say he was supposed to have an extra full pip?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I hate jumping through hoops to rationalize things, but considering the number of times we've had rank pip gaffes on the show -- especially with regular characters -- couldn't we "bump" Piersall up to a Lt. Commander and say he was supposed to have an extra full pip?
That would be very easy to do, especially as they gave Data a Lt(J.G.)'s pips in AGT. However, it's been a long time since I saw that episode - how old is Piersall? Does he look like he could be a Lt Cmdr, or is he Ltish?
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: and then there's the Captain of the Prometheus (NCC-71201) who was a Lieutenant Commander.
Lieutenant Junior Grade by his pips.
But the guy seemingly in charge of the Nebula Class Prometheus was never addressed as Captain, was he. I thought he was just the shift leader like Harry Kim on night shift or something.
posted
Possibly - but during all the time that Seyetik was blabbing away, SOMEONE from the normal command crew should've been woken, come to the bridge, and then upstaged Sisko by assuming commmand.
I still think that the Prometheus was SUPPOSED to be a small science ship or something, but they just used the Nebula Model by mistake.
quote:Originally posted by Nim: "There are some backstories that place Kirk in command of the Saladin."
Does anyone else appreciate the irony in this?
Saladin was the sultan of Egypt and Syria who opposed the Crusaders. I postulate, MinutiaeMan, that the irony is that a red-blooded farm boy with a Christian surname once commanded a vessel named after a Middle Eastern leader. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nim.
Interesting breakdown, Phoenix. I am inclined to agree with your assessment in regards to a starship being a Captain's Rank command. I never cared for Roddenberry's dictum that only Captains can command a ship.
Perhaps, during TOS those of the Starship Classification, Connies and such, were commanded by Captains while smaller vessels were commanded by Commanders and down the line.
Also, the Enterprise by Naval tradition, as you point out Phoenix, is not a flagship. That term has been misused a lot in all of Trek. I always thought that TNG should've had Picard as an Admiral and Riker as a Captain. Thus, making the Enterprise-D a true flagship. Then again, I thought it would've been more interesting to have Picard in command of an exploration fleet with the Big-E as his flagship, while Riker was responsible for the daily operation of the ship.
Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: Saladin was the sultan of Egypt and Syria who opposed the Crusaders. I postulate, MinutiaeMan, that the irony is that a red-blooded farm boy with a Christian surname once commanded a vessel named after a Middle Eastern leader. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nim.
Ah, I was looking too deep and missed the one in plain sight! I knew the origins of Saladin.
quote:Also, the Enterprise by Naval tradition, as you point out Phoenix, is not a flagship. That term has been misused a lot in all of Trek. I always thought that TNG should've had Picard as an Admiral and Riker as a Captain. Thus, making the Enterprise-D a true flagship. Then again, I thought it would've been more interesting to have Picard in command of an exploration fleet with the Big-E as his flagship, while Riker was responsible for the daily operation of the ship.
The funniest part about that is that in "Descent," when Admiral Nechayev rushed out to take command of the task force that was preparing for the Borg, she chose the USS Gorkon -- a measly old Excelsior-class starship -- as her FLAGSHIP, rather than transferring her FLAG to the Enterprise, which was already the FLAGSHIP of the Federation!
Of course, again they didn't want any guest characters to upstage Jean-Luc.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: The funniest part about that is that in "Descent," when Admiral Nechayev rushed out to take command of the task force that was preparing for the Borg, she chose the USS Gorkon -- a measly old Excelsior-class starship -- as her FLAGSHIP, rather than transferring her FLAG to the Enterprise, which was already the FLAGSHIP of the Federation!
Of course, again they didn't want any guest characters to upstage Jean-Luc.
That reminds me. Why do Admirals always choose rubbish ships as their flagships? The only occasion I can think of where an Admiral chooses a decent ship is the DS9 episode where it is implied that the Galaxy Class USS Venture is Admiral Hastur's flagship (although I don't think it is actually stated).
(Perhaps Necheyev couldn't fly her flag on the Enterprise because it already had the Federation flag on it and there's only one flagpole)
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
posted
I can think of all sorts of reasons. While we know the Galaxy can function as a command and control ship, it's also almost always put right up in the front to get the most use out of it in a battle. It does not make acres of sense to have your Admiral out in front when you have adequate communications.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Recall TOS "The Deadly Years" with Commodore Stocker, the "bumbling officer" who made it beyond the Captains rank without ever even commanding a starship. He really fudged things up when he took command of the Enterprise, to boot.
Perhaps Harriman managed to stay out of the way of the starship command structure and was based on a starbase his entire career up to becoming the captain of the Enterprise.
BTW, wasn't Stocker a red shirt Commodore?
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: [qb]The funniest part about that is that in "Descent," when Admiral Nechayev rushed out to take command of the task force that was preparing for the Borg, she chose the USS Gorkon -- a measly old Excelsior-class starship -- as her FLAGSHIP, rather than transferring her FLAG to the Enterprise, which was already the FLAGSHIP of the Federation!
Of course, again they didn't want any guest characters to upstage Jean-Luc.
That reminds me. Why do Admirals always choose rubbish ships as their flagships? The only occasion I can think of where an Admiral chooses a decent ship is the DS9 episode where it is implied that the Galaxy Class USS Venture is Admiral Hastur's flagship (although I don't think it is actually stated).
Admiral Ross had the Bellerephon as well.
As for "Admirals and Excelsiors" it seems that by that time Excelsiors were probably a dime a dozen so rather than scrapping the ships they pass a few around to some more elite or high ranking admirals as their personal transportation. From what we have seen, most admirals are restricted or seem to be limited to some sort of starbase duty so perhaps depending on the importance of the area (i.e. near the DMZ or Neutral Zone) an Admiral with a starship at his/her disposal as rugged as the Excelsior might be more of a positive than a negative. This is expecially true if their only alternative is scooting around in a runabout or shuttlecraft.
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
