posted
Also consider that the Enterprise was not exactly idled at a starbase at the time; Nechayev would have needed a ride to the front lines in any case. Instead of using big explorers as VIP base-to-front shuttles, it would make perfect sense for Starfleet to keep specifically configured flagships on standby at starbases. And these ships should be units not missed at the front lines, too.
So an Excelsior would make perfect sense. Large numbers of them could have been "demoted" to command ships after the last war. They'd still have the speed to reach the front, the strength to keep the flag officer safe, but also the numbers to be available everywhere, and the age to make them affordable.
As for Harriman, I trust he was a veteran officer who was simply forced into an impossible position. The whole deal with the E-B smacks of a media trick where Starfleet rides on the reputation of Kirk and the Enterprise name in order to sell an budget-bursting battleship to the taxpayers. Harriman would know his ship couldn't handle the crisis, and would have strict instructions not to put the media representatives at risk - but would also have been told not to make Starfleet or the ship look bad.
Harriman would have looked more heroic had he at first defied the first part of his orders and rushed to the rescue, then defied the second part and turned the ship away when rescue was deemed impossible. A happy end, especially for the El-Aurians...
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Recall TOS "The Deadly Years" with Commodore Stocker, the "bumbling officer" who made it beyond the Captains rank without ever even commanding a starship. He really fudged things up when he took command of the Enterprise, to boot.
Perhaps Harriman managed to stay out of the way of the starship command structure and was based on a starbase his entire career up to becoming the captain of the Enterprise.
BTW, wasn't Stocker a red shirt Commodore?
Then again, TOS used the rank of Commodore incorrectly for most of its run. At least, by its true military definition. Yes, Stocker was a red-shirted Commodore. Same as the one seen in "Court Martial." I'm sure Spike can explain better than I why the red shirt was worn instead of command-mustard (or lime-green, depending if you go by screen color or actual costume color).
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posted
In a fleet in 3-dimensional space, the Flagship would need to be the most heavily protected (mabye at the center of a large spherical grouping of starships) to coordinate the fleet. It makes sense to have the toughest ships at the perimiter of the fleet while the Admiral uses a moderately powered ship as the command center as it's the least likely to engage in direct combat. Why weaken your offensive capability by making the toughest ship the Flagship?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I am no expert on battle tactics. All I know is that in modern navies, the Admiral is on the big ship (normally an Aircraft Carrier, but it depends on the fleet). I assumed Starfleet would do the same. And if I were a Starfleet Admiral, I know I would pick a decent ship for my flagship. Maybe not a Galaxy Class, which I admit probably would be more useful as a combat ship, but something like an Akira, or a Nebula perhaps, and definitely not an Excelsior. Do we know what Admiral Hanson's or Admiral Hayes' flagships were at the battles of Wolf 359 and Earth (if not from the episode, then from the scripts)?
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posted
Current USN practice derives mostly from the fact that the only real qualification for a flagship is a big room full of communications gear. And big ships tend to have big rooms.
In earlier times, there were other considerations - flagships had to compensate for slow and short-ranged communications and poor situational awareness by being nimble and fast, and often had to fight in the front lines to properly see what was going on. OTOH, lines could be held and rear-echelon ships be protected.
Starfleet lives in a different reality again. Unlike the USN, it doesn't seem to believe in securing a perimeter around a core ship - fleets butt heads by getting thoroughly intermingled. Klingons bring their flagships to the front, too, and in "Way of the Warrior" it actually made tactical sense.
As for which admiral flew which ship: Commodore Wesley had a standard-looking Constitution-of-the-line and seemed to command her personally. Hanson at Wolf 359 supposedly was aboard the Melbourne, which was either Excelsior or Nebula class (both identifications rely on barely glimpsed visuals) - but what was the dialogue on this again? Nechayev's command ship Gorkon was identified as an Excelsior only in the Encyclopedia, and might have been an early Sovereign for all we know unless somebody can come up with an Okudagram that says differently. Hayes' ship was never identified as anything but "destroyed". Was Ross really aboard the supposedly Intrepid class Bellerephon in any of the DS9 battles?
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: Current USN practice derives mostly from the fact that the only real qualification for a flagship is a big room full of communications gear. And big ships tend to have big rooms.
In earlier times, there were other considerations - flagships had to compensate for slow and short-ranged communications and poor situational awareness by being nimble and fast, and often had to fight in the front lines to properly see what was going on. OTOH, lines could be held and rear-echelon ships be protected.
Starfleet lives in a different reality again. Unlike the USN, it doesn't seem to believe in securing a perimeter around a core ship - fleets butt heads by getting thoroughly intermingled. Klingons bring their flagships to the front, too, and in "Way of the Warrior" it actually made tactical sense.
As for which admiral flew which ship: Commodore Wesley had a standard-looking Constitution-of-the-line and seemed to command her personally. Hanson at Wolf 359 supposedly was aboard the Melbourne, which was either Excelsior or Nebula class (both identifications rely on barely glimpsed visuals) - but what was the dialogue on this again? Nechayev's command ship Gorkon was identified as an Excelsior only in the Encyclopedia, and might have been an early Sovereign for all we know unless somebody can come up with an Okudagram that says differently. Hayes' ship was never identified as anything but "destroyed". Was Ross really aboard the supposedly Intrepid class Bellerephon in any of the DS9 battles?
We all know that Intrepids are invincible, so it would make tactical sense.
As Starfleet's policy is to throw all their ships in at once, with little or no protective formations, wouldn't it make sense for the Admiral commanding to be on a big sturdy ship? I think that the Bellerophon was just temporary, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula, so I can sort of believe that Admirals do pick decent ships sometimes. This leads me to hope that the Prometheus shown in Endgame was the flagship and had an Admiral on it (hopefully it wasn't the useless Bonchune). Now I think of it, why was Sisko commanding a fleet of 600 in the battle to retake DS9? Was there really that much of an Admiral shortage?
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Umm, why would the tiny Prometheus be better than the huge Nebula (aside from the former spanking the latter silly in a fight where only the former was shooting to kill)? If anything, a Prometheus would have even less amenities for fleet command than an Intrepid of comparable size, due to the multi-vector mechanism.
To grope for excuses for the �ber-silly idea of placing the desk pilot Sisko in fleet command, he might only have had a "ceremonial" command. He did very little actual commanding in the end, once the battle was joined. Much of it was of the "requesting assistance" kind that any regular captain would do. Unfortunately not all, though.
quote: I think that the Bellerophon was just temporary, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula, so I can sort of believe that Admirals do pick decent ships sometimes. This leads me to hope that the Prometheus shown in Endgame was the flagship and had an Admiral on it (hopefully it wasn't the useless Bonchune).[/QB]
There is also the possibility that the admiral gets to "choose their flagship" (according to Riker in AGT, and they might want to keep the same ship and command crew they had as a captain. That Kirk guy would (I'm sure) prefer the old Enterprise refit with his command crew, over the Excelsior if given the choice. In the (non-canon, I know) DS9 relaunch books Admiral Ross' flagship is the Prometheus class Cerebus (although more for speed it seems than anything else). Some admirals seem to float from srea to area troubleshooting for Starfleet Command. If the Melbourne was the Nebula then it was the Nebula variant with the two extra nacelles (mabye for added high warp duration). I believe that Sisko was acting as Fleet captain for the Bajoran sector during the war, so his leading the fight to re-take the station makes sense: nobody knew the territory or had more on the line than he did.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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...Although one wonders what "territory" has to do with Trek space combat. Even insystem combat (which the battle to retake DS9 probably represents) is comparable to fighting on an open ocean, and a perfectly calm one at that. "Territory" doesn't come with any "terrain" features, not in this style of space combat.
What did Sisko know? The defensive capabilities of his station, probably. At least prior to the self-destruct routine Kira ran on them. And something about the psychological makeup of the Cardassians and the Dominion. Plus more detail on Dukat and Weyoun specifically. All of those did contribute to the eventual victory, and even to the fleet combat part - Ross or, say, Picard probably wouldn't have been able to lure out the Cardassians that way.
That still doesn't make it logical to place Sisko in a position that calls for flag-level training. But a personal advisor to Ross would have been a fitting position...
posted
For Sisko to be in command of that fleet, which he obviously was (he was giving orders to Captains, and even entire wings), there must have been no Admirals on any of the ships, or anywhere nearby. They talked about the "ninth fleet" I think - surely this fleet has an Admiral commanding it. Would this Admiral be happy letting Sisko command his fleet? I doubt it.
I said that I hoped the Admiral would be on the Prometheus because if the Borg attacked Earth, the Admiral commanding the defence would need to be on the ship which is least likely to be destroyed (as in any battle actually), which in this case was the Prometheus.
Incidentally, do we know it was the Prometheus? Could it have been another Promtheus Class ship, or was its registry/name visible?
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I believe the registry was seen... Anyway, the Prometheus is supposed to be exceptionally fast, not exceptionally durable. Or did you mean the admiral would need a fast ship to flee, and thus survive?
Considering that nobody actually acknowledged Sisko's orders, perhaps he was just power-mad and ranting at walls?
posted
In the book Ross had to get to some trouble spot (the Romulans I think) to mediate a conflict really fast and it was mentioned that Starfleet was running him ragged during the ("gateways" I think) crisis. Y'know, now that I think about it, it's good in many ways that the books are not canon: There's usually some galaxy threatening crossover once a year!
...at least the DS9 books are keeping it really true to the series.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: Also consider that the Enterprise was not exactly idled at a starbase at the time; Nechayev would have needed a ride to the front lines in any case. Instead of using big explorers as VIP base-to-front shuttles, it would make perfect sense for Starfleet to keep specifically configured flagships on standby at starbases. And these ships should be units not missed at the front lines, too.
So an Excelsior would make perfect sense. Large numbers of them could have been "demoted" to command ships after the last war. They'd still have the speed to reach the front, the strength to keep the flag officer safe, but also the numbers to be available everywhere, and the age to make them affordable.
That certainly makes sense, to a point; the Excelsiors would be better suited in later years as rear-deployed ships. And being so common, the Admirals get plenty of freebies.
At the same time, though, I've never really seen any evidence that truly dedicated command-and-control facilities or equipment is needed to manage Starfleet's fleets -- although Sisko and the Defiant isn't exactly the best example, we also saw Admiral Hanson sitting on a normal (Battle) Bridge. Not only that, but we also know from the TNG:TM that the Galaxy class had the most advanced comm packages of the time.
And just to throw another monkey wrench into the argument, the US Navy does indeed employ two command ships even today. Don't know how much practical use they really are, though.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: I believe the registry was seen... Anyway, the Prometheus is supposed to be exceptionally fast, not exceptionally durable. Or did you mean the admiral would need a fast ship to flee, and thus survive?
I always got the impression that the Prometheus was incredibly durable. I mean it managed to repair itself on its own in MIAB (the phasers were down, now they aren't!) and survive for a rather long period of time against 3 D'Deridexes, and it had that cool "regenerative armour" or something similar.
Frankly, if the Admiral defending Earth manages to lose his fleet, and thus Earth, to the Borg, I think running away will be the last thing he needs to do. (Suicide run springs to mind.)
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quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: I think that the Bellerophon was just temporary, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula
The word 'USS Melbourne' is visible on the Excelsior hull in "Emissary" even on VHS tape, and I'd expect even moreso on DVD now. All evidence for the Nebula Class Melbourne comes from secondary information (BTS footage, Encyclopedia footnotes, etc.). 'USS Melbourne' was not legible in the show at all during BoBW II.
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